BC Growers Association

BCG Chat Archives

July 1999 Archives


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 02:47:48 8/01/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   nc have reposted you to the shark tank at overgrow as the guy posted there as well!!!!!

                   Budm you have mail!!


                   TOPIC - A1
                   DATE - 20:16:43 7/31/99
                   FROM - ncga

                   Our community is really FUCKED UP. This poster is a sick opportunist. Not only to take , No steal, money from the
                   community but to take it from someone in need, fighting to keep their family and personal freedom. Yes some of the
                   facts are right but a lot of extras to make it seam real and a tear jerker.. Maybe you feel pot is illegal fine it's a moral
                   judgment. But in NOBODIES BOOK IS STEALING OK


                   1 Directly to the Oakland office Addressed to William G Panzer

                   The above person has deliberately invaded our community and has decided that it is ok to take money that people
                   send in to truly help another person they might not have ever meet. Truly showing a side of the community other don't
                   think we have. Compassion and a since of justice.

                   I am truly sicken and Disgusted. Mike even you can look good compared to this SCUM. At least you were fairly up
                   front on what you Weren't going to do. This community did all it could to kept that type of character problem out. WELL
                   WHAT ARE WE DOING NOW ?


                   Vic High



                   Or me if It needs to be corrected.

                   ALL OTHER POST SHOULD BE IGNORED . I personally think del and Ron Should use the full force to protect THE
                   COMMUNITY. This is the worst attack on it ever.

                   Sorry to have to take them to do this but after donating to help and seeing this I had to take the time to post

                   The Above is in response to a message at can.com. So please all, if you see other information posted please correct
                   it. Can't let this happen to us. We may be Stoned but not Stupid

                   I hope dig into my collection Also to make some nice items avalible.



                   TOPIC - Let's see if this works ...
                   DATE - 19:00:44 7/31/99
                   FROM - pbi4fquj

                   Trying this new proxy, but it doesn't want to do the regular E-mail thing ... ... oh well.

                   At any rate, lets give this a shot and see if the E comes through. Try to send me a message, and we'll go from there
                   ... .

                   Om Mani Padme


                   TOPIC - White widow...
                   DATE - 13:34:22 7/31/99
                   FROM - chronic man
                   I'm wondering if the White widow is the same from Dutch passion as it is from Greenhouse. I got some from DP, and
                   didn't see all that much "whiteness", and was wondering if I got the real deal or what. They sure did have alot of
                   variance, some were alot different than others. I'm hoping the Romberry is better, I have a feeling it will be.
                   cHrOnIc man


                   TOPIC - 2 & 3 liter soda bottles.
                   DATE - 12:29:06 7/31/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi all, af started using 2 & 3 liter soda bottles for some seedlings & clones a few months back, usually he uses 1-5 gal
                   pots, however he wanted to start more new seeds then space would allow, so he planted seeds in 20oz plastic cups,
                   then transpanted them into the soda bottles, with a mixture of new and recycled supersoil, along with extra castings,
                   and gaunos. The seedlings were grown until alternating phylotaxy in the veg closet, then went into flower closet, and
                   were flowered till harvest in the same soda bottles. The first results are in now, so far one RSB suprise, in a 2 liter
                   bottle, yielded 15 grams of manicured dried bud, hes happy with the results. The RSB sup's are really vigerous, this gal
                   had nice big colas 8"-10" in a 2L container!, and she had a great skunky bouquet.

                   Allthough the soda bottles are not as stable as the regular pots, and require more attention, and frequent waterings,
                   they allow more vareity in the flower closet, to try diffrent genetics, with a small commitment of footprint/space. The 3
                   liter bottles are able to support a nice size gal of 2.5'.

                   As of late hes been using some 3 liter bottles, with clones from a BigBud mom that he usually flowered in 2 gal pots,
                   and the yield is about the same. This one clone seems to produce the same results in 3L & 2 gal containers, even with
                   2 weeks more veg time in the 2 gal pots. It seems that some clones dont follow as closely as other strains to the "The
                   size of the rootball equals the yield size"



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 02:07:28 7/31/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Vic mail call!!


                   TOPIC - oil
                   DATE - 22:24:28 7/30/99
                   FROM - o.k BIGbud
                   anyone have a good recipe for some nice oil??


                   TOPIC - Widowed Trichome Syndrome
                   DATE - 15:29:31 7/30/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   Thanks for the White Widow info. Senor Soul. You're quite right to question whether there is a direct relationship
                   between trichome production and potency per se.

                   Trichomes themselves reveal Nothing except a genetic predisposition towards the production of trichomes in unseeded

                   We learned that one the hard way many years ago. Some sneaky young vermin found an isolated patch of ditch-weed
                   and pulled the males early enough to eliminate all seeds. The resulting burn-bag buds were sparkling as could be,
                   smelled pungent and spicey, but wouldn't give you a buzz at all! It was Zero in THC content, but looked, smelled, and
                   tasted just fine.

                   Until some enterprising folks come up with a cheap, reliable, do-it-at-home, thin layer chromatography kit, we're all
                   going to be shooting in the dark when it comes to the question of potency in general, THC levels, as well as the CBN
                   and CBD ratios.

                   Would it be a simple way to check for actual genetic potency to just test smoke each strain as Seeded Herb! If it's the
                   strongest when seeded, by George, wouldn't it make the best seedless?

                   Just curious. ...


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 14:00:56 7/30/99
                   FROM - a friend
                   Thanks irish, I'll check it out. Hope others will also.


                   TOPIC - to a friend
                   DATE - 11:46:04 7/30/99
                   FROM - irish
                   check the shark tank and the outdoor board at www.overgrow.com

                   all info is there.
                   also e mail for the lawyer


                   TOPIC - A1 Lawyer fees
                   DATE - 07:29:14 7/30/99
                   FROM - A friend
                   Hey Vic,
                   Any update on who to send the $$ to. I know theres a timeline here and would like to help out. I'll bet there are other
                   people out there wanting to do the same. I would also like to know any particulars in the circumstances that led to his
                   bust. Thanks


                   TOPIC - White Widow's Contribution
                   DATE - 13:44:11 7/29/99
                   FROM - Soul
                   The major contribution White Widow seems to make in the crosses we've done is adding not so much potency, per se,
                   but trichome production and density. It's uncertain how strongly trichome quantity correlates to potency...but it sure
                   looks pretty when the plants are frosty & in general indicates more potent plants - although exceptions are easy to find.

                   Another bonus - the more resinous the bud leaves, the better the grower's homemade hash!


                   TOPIC - george
                   DATE - 07:07:01 7/29/99
                   FROM - widowlover
                   curious george, you know how it goes, some folks just don't know how to pick a good mother, or they get ripped off by
                   the seedseller, or they're just unlucky and don't get a "keeper".

                   the widow is up there with the best of the amsterdam genetics of the past 10 years (the other obvious standout from a
                   breeder's point of view is JHerer). although the "real" widow (from "the greenhouse"; the one that won the cup in '96)
                   gets alot of negative reviews from people who don't like its taste, find it finicky to grow, not a good yielder, etc, it is an
                   EXCELLENT breeding strain. many of the recent cup-winners (GWS, rhino, russian, etc.) are F1's from ww crosses. it
                   adds crystal potency to anything it's crossed with, so many breeders choose the best non-widow mothers in their grow
                   and make crosses on them with select widow males, hoping to preserve the mothers' good flavor and yield traits and
                   add some widow potency.



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 15:47:03 7/28/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Ag/Bio Con, the Guardian [UK] say belong to Monsanto.


                   TOPIC - Fungus Folly etc.
                   DATE - 15:26:52 7/28/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   Thanks to Danbo for posting that article about the soil-borne fungus that's being considered for use against outdoor
                   growers in Florida.

                   It made the front page in some national press, and rightly so. Hope the Networks pick up on it.

                   Such complete nonsence! What the hell kind of drugs are those people on anyway?

                   Stay tuned ... this could become an election issue since brother Bush, the Gov. of Florida, has brother Bush, the Gov.
                   of Texas, running to replace Clinton.

                   Sampled a bit of some supposed White Widow recently ... wasn't particularly impressed ... tasted OK ... smelled fruity
                   ... no great shakes otherwise.

                   What's the big deal? High yields? Sparkling appearance?

                   Just curious.


                   TOPIC - F2s
                   DATE - 14:01:48 7/28/99
                   FROM - modscrog
                   Budm-thank you.



                   TOPIC - modscrog-F2
                   DATE - 10:15:58 7/28/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi All,
                   modscrog-The Peak19 F2s were made in a F1 grow of the Peaks, as were the Nevils Haze, they were a gift from af, to
                   cross with the Panama Red male. Marc E has the Peak 19 F2s for sale, its off menu selection, if you email him he will
                   eloborate. HTH

                   Budboy- af has had some 3-4' plants in 1 gal pots, but they are topheavy and need support not to fall, and the rootball
                   needs more attention when its confined to such a small amount of medium, like more frequent waterings, and its easy
                   to damage the rootball from dryout, it can happen real fast. I know one gardner who uses small pots for gals that are
                   much bigger then 3 feet(6'+), but he is very very experienced, and has his flowering room "dialed in" to perfection. Like
                   Bushy says, 2 & 3 gal pots are a better choice, and they leave more room for error, as far as exact watering
                   schedules. HTH



                   TOPIC - Budboy and pot sizes
                   DATE - 07:47:56 7/28/99
                   FROM - BushyOlderGrower
                   The I gal. pot is too small for a three ft plant, I recommend at least 2 and it should be a 3 gal pot. I have a concern that
                   a 3 foot bush in a 1 gal pot might need watering more than 1 time a day if warm and that is no good the yield will be
                   much better in siol if you have a big enough pot approx 1 gal for each foot the plant is going to ge at harvest, this
                   prevents root bound and yellowed leaves. The yield increase of a bigger pot is undeniable just try an experiment a 1 gal
                   and the rest 2 gal and 1 3 gal pot, you then decide. OVERGROW!! BushyOlderGrower :)


                   TOPIC - another grower.....
                   DATE - 22:08:37 7/27/99
                   FROM - budboy
                   Dam vic that suxs what happen to that califorina grower, I live in ca too mybe if the guy wants i can get him in touch
                   with a few good lawyer my uncle is a law and maybe he can help out, But any ways ,what size container do i need for
                   a 3foot mj plant , I have heard u can use 1 gal containers, I will be feeding it ateaof wormcasting , bat guna , and liquid
                   se weed at every watering time, But what container do u sugest I use and also how far apart should I have the plants
                   from one another?


                   TOPIC - F2s
                   DATE - 21:09:08 7/27/99
                   FROM - modscrog
                   Hey ya'll.
                   Budm- i havn't seen those little f2s at the bean shops.
                   ?. thanx, mosc


                   TOPIC - A-1 and karma
                   DATE - 15:18:39 7/27/99
                   FROM - A Friend
                   Hey Vic,
                   That is a great thing you are doing.
                   I just happened to be near the lawyer's office today, and tried to stop in to give my donation, but, no lawyer avail. I will
                   be sending him an e mail today requesting the best method of an anon donation.



                   TOPIC - business/politics
                   DATE - 12:47:37 7/27/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Some of us have a friend who fell earlier this year. He is a California grower/electrician whom we knew as A1. He was a
                   regular at Weedbase in it's early days. I met him last summer when he and some fellow americans came to Vancouver
                   to visit us BC Growers in a sorta fun minicup. (Grapefruit grown by Lothar beat my organic romulan to win BTW) They
                   also had the pleasure of meeting Breeder Steve and Ed Rosenthal on that trip. Anyways, he was the proud holder of a
                   medical certificate thinking that he was allowed to grow and smoke marijuana. Well he got popped for growing over 50
                   plants and it seems that they want to make a test case out of him. The government is hoping to establish precidence
                   in a few areas. One is to establish that medical smokers are not capable of caring for their children so must choose
                   between the two. Another is to establish limits on what medical conditions are legit, I think A1 found it balanced his
                   mental state and helped treat depression.

                   One thing that makes him a good test case is his lack of funds and financial support. I want to help but my personal
                   situation sucks big time right now, I've had my share of bad luck recently. Seed inventory is running low with only stock
                   of blueberry, romulan Strawberry Blonde suprise, and romulan suprise being left. However, I propose to donate 1/3 of
                   my proceeds from this remaining stock to contribute to A1's legal defence. So if HS, Emery seeds, or Seed-bank want
                   to help out the cause please get in touch. I will let the seeddbank send funds directly to A1's lawyer and take credit for
                   the donation, wink, wink.

                   Stock on hand:

                   Romulan suprise
                   2 - packs of 500
                   2 - packs of 200

                   Romulan Strawberry Blonde Suprise
                   2 - packs of 500
                   1 - pack of 200

                   Original Blueberry - 2nd generation
                   2 - packs 500
                   3 - packs 200
                   1 - pack 100

                   ** - PLEASE NOTE - **

                   I'm too paranoid to do direct sales, so please don't even ask. There are three souces to enquire at, hopefully one of
                   them will be suitable to you, and be willing to participate in this fund raiser.


                   TOPIC - soil question
                   DATE - 11:23:59 7/27/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi all,

                   Vic- I know in the past you mentioned that there was a "build-up" of something or another after a couple of times
                   recycling the supersoil, af has been recycling since he started 9 mos ago, he originally started out with about, 20gals
                   of supersoil, and over the past 9months has built it up to about 80gals of mix, most times a recycled pot is mixed with
                   a equal amount of new ssoil mix, with 25+/- additional amendments, also over the past 9 months about 10 gals of
                   castings,have found there way into the overall amount of soil, along with a few pounds of gaunos,at times Bioblend 2
                   part organic ferts have been applied, and reciently EJ Catylast has been used every other watering, also used one pack
                   of Blossom Blood, anyhow, although its a very abstract picture of the auctual precise make up of the medium, it
                   sounds like a nice mix of diffrent amendments at diffrent ages,and degrees of decomposition, as of late hes been giving
                   some thought as to where to go from here, and what to be "on the lookout for" with a few diffrent genetics, that each
                   vary in vigor, and nute needs, hes decided to ask "Where would you go from here?"

                   footnote on a product, af has had a couple of gals in the flower closet that are needing more "P" then the Ssoil is
                   leaching,and he reciently started using a new type of flowering gauno that works great, its "The Gauno Co." the
                   "Budswel" product, 0-7-7, well leaf health started improving
                   with one application of Two-three teaspoons per pot as topdressing, results are fast, he was suprised however to read
                   the ingredients,and find out that its not 100% gauno,its Earthworm Castings, Bat & SeaBird Gaunos, in that order, I
                   guess thats why its less expensive then the 100% gaunos, but it works nice;-)

                   A couple of notes from the garden.

                   RSB sup at 43 days is looking great, xmas tree shape, big yield, a bit hi on the leaf to flower ratio, very frosty, nice
                   smell, very long sativa leaves that curl and twist, from being longer then any leaves ever seen! real diffrent looking.

                   Peak19 F2s, Are doing fantastic, this reminds me of the Princess reports, "grows like a Indica, smokes like a Sativa"
                   fuzzy with tricomes, very impressive sativa soaring high and taste. These made me a beliver in F2s.

                   Nevils Haze F2 #1
                   has the thinest leaf blades, even in the juvienile stage, they are going to be very thin when the leafs get bigger they are
                   going to be very thin, they are progress a bit slower then average.




                   TOPIC - This is a great site
                   DATE - 10:57:25 7/27/99
                   FROM - Mr.Mryick Ebanks
                   Hello I have been looking around the internet for a while for Marijuana growing sites and i can say by far this is the best
                   one. Thanks for the info Now I am going to overgrow big BRO.



                   TOPIC - thanks
                   DATE - 10:30:35 7/27/99
                   FROM - daddy cool
                   thank you VIC!!


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 07:42:59 7/27/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Stomata are for breathing air. They are on the bottom to prevent rain water and debris from plugging them. Foliar feed
                   from the top. In the meantime, I'll keep my eyes open to support this, the studies have been done.

                   Danbo - the arrogance of some groups never ceases to amaze me. Your article started by initiating some heavy
                   emotions, but the more I looked at it, the more I lost the ability to condem it. I started by thinking that if this was
                   contemplated by a lesser power, they would have the UN all over their asses. But is this fusarium fungus any different a
                   concept that using BTK to kill gypsey moths? BTK is a bacteria that kills moths, we spray it to kill gypsey moths
                   without worrying what it does to other butterfy and moth populations. I guess in the end, money talks and we are
                   destined to keep relearning the same lessons over and over. We are not God.

                   Budboy - you have two strains that are NOT known for their yields? Why the newbie impatience in the yield
                   department? No way to predict what you will get there except to anticipate something at the lower end of the range
                   proposed by tripp.

                   Daddy - The romulan story is posted at can com on the breeding board or do a search on this page. So far only two
                   breeders are offering romulan genetics from two different romulan sisters. Mine is the 10week sister, Federation is
                   working with the 8 week sister. They both have their good and bad points, but I am pleased with the sister that ended
                   up in my garden :) As for hype and it being cool, In a garden containing legends such as grapefruit, g13, that old Cali-o
                   legend, and chemo, the original romulan mother clone is still the best in the garden as and all around plant IMO. I have
                   no intentions of releasing a pure version of her so you will not be hearing a lot of hype from others. Also, apart from
                   giving a truthful answer to your questions, I don't feel it is nice to talk about something I can't share. As for why Emery
                   and Federation have backed off on their romulan hype, I'll leave that to them and their customers.


                   TOPIC - Leaf feeding
                   DATE - 06:52:00 7/27/99
                   FROM - Danbo
                   Wonder . Most of the stomata are on the leaf bottom. So it
                   figures the uptake is best there. I do however spray both sides.


                   TOPIC - Fungas
                   DATE - 06:42:51 7/27/99
                   FROM - Danbo
                   Hey Vic , Just sharing this article with as many as possible.

                   IAMI -- For decades, the hard part for drug agents stalking Florida's marijuana growers was finding their crop. The
                   growers weave their plants among corn stalks and even tomato vines to foil aerial searches. In swamps, growers make
                   berms out of muck and chicken wire and plant their crop, leaving fat, black water moccasins to stand guard.

                   Hidden in Florida's lush landscape, the camouflaged marijuana plants often foiled the small army of officers, helicopters
                   and drug-sniffing dogs.

                   Now, the new head of the state's Office of Drug Control hopes to kill Florida's lucrative marijuana business in the very
                   ground in which it thrives, by someday dusting suspected areas with a marijuana-eating, soil-borne fungus, Fusarium
                   oxysporum. It is a plan that has some politicians and Florida drug enforcement officials excited, and some
                   environmentalists very worried.

                   The fungus, a bioherbicide engineered specifically to attack plants like marijuana, is otherwise harmless, said Ag/Bio
                   Con, the Montana company that developed it.

                   "Is it safe, and does it work?" asked Jim McDonough, who was hired by Gov. Jeb Bush this year to head Florida's
                   Office of Drug Control.

                   "I've heard some of the top scientists in the country say, 'Yes.' " But McDonough, who served as Director of Strategy
                   for Barry R. McCaffrey, the White House drug czar, said the fungus would not be used here until it was tested in rigidly
                   controlled conditions at a Florida site.

                   "When you deal with science, you deal with the cost of advancing and what is the cost of not advancing," said
                   McDonough, who pointed out that 47 percent of the marijuana seized in the United States is taken here -- and much of
                   it is home-grown. Most years, drug agents destroy more than 100,000 plants, and one year, 1992, they destroyed
                   more than 240,000 plants.

                   "With prudence and with care, make your choices," he said.

                   McDonough said he has not yet presented the plan to Bush.

                   But in Florida, a state that has seen its environment ravaged by supposedly harmless plants that thrived so well in a
                   damp, hot climate that they overwhelmed indigenous plants, some environmentalists say introducing the fungus is
                   risky, that it could mutate and cause disease, not only in wild plants but in crops as well.

                   "I personally do not like the idea of messing with mother nature," said Bill Graves, senior biologist at the University of
                   Florida Research Center in Homestead. "I believe that if this fungus is unleashed for this kind of problem, it's going to
                   create its own problems. If it isn't executed effectively, it's going to target and kill rare and endangered plants."

                   David Struhs, Secretary of the Florida Department of Environmental Protection, spelled out the dangers in a letter to
                   McDonough dated April 6, 1999.

                   "Fusarium species," he wrote, "are capable of evolving rapidly. Mutagenicity is by far the most disturbing factor in
                   attempting to use a Fusarium species as a bioherbicide.

                   "It is difficult, if not impossible," he wrote, "to control the spread of Fusarium species."

                   The mutated fungi can cause disease in a large number of crops, including tomatoes, peppers, flowers, corn and vines,
                   he wrote, and are "normally considered a threat to farmers as a pest, rather than as a pesticide. Fusarium species are
                   more active in warm soils and can stay resident in the soil for years. Their longevity and enhanced activity under Florida
                   conditions are of concern, as this could lead to an increased risk of mutagenicity."

                   What that means, say environmentalists, is that it is hot here much of the time, and living things behave differently in
                   Florida than almost anywhere else in this country.

                   "In principle, I am very supportive of using biological agents against narcotic plants," said Raghavan Charudattan,
                   professor of plant pathology and weed science at the University of Florida. "This needs to be researched well or it could
                   lead to great danger."

                   State officials have agreed to quarantine testing of the fungus -- at a facility outside Gainesville usually used for, among
                   other things, studying citrus canker, a catastrophic plant disease that has ruined whole orchards -- and for now any
                   use of the fungus is probably years away.

                   But McDonough has some powerful allies, including Representative Bill McCollum, a Republican from Longwood, Fla.
                   McDonough is planning to try to obtain part of a $23-million Congressional allocation for research in eradicating plants
                   like marijuana, and having an ally like McCollum, as well as some Republican fund-raisers who back the idea, could be

                   In Peru, angry farmers have recently accused the United States of using a soil fungus to destroy coca in the Upper
                   Huallaga Valley, saying that fungus has spread to banana, yucca, tangerine and other food crops, according to The
                   Miami Herald.

                   American officials, while acknowledging in June that they had spent $14 million on research to develop such biological
                   agents against poppy, coca and marijuana, denied the charges.

                   In Florida, history has taught scientists to be cautious of introducing any foreign, living thing into the environment.
                   While pythons as long as pickup trucks have occasionally been found under houses in South Florida, most of the
                   problems have been with vegetable matter.

                   Kudzu, a Chinese vine that has grown rampant in the South since its introduction in the 1920's to thwart soil erosion,
                   has swallowed houses and acres of roadside in Florida, as it grows a foot a day. Melaleuca trees, planted decades ago
                   to help drain the Everglades because they suck up so much water, have infested hundreds of thousands of acres.

                   Jerry Brooks, assistant director of the state Department of Environmental Protection's Division of Water Resources,
                   said the difference between those plants and the fungus is that the state has learned to be careful.

                   "Mistakes made in the past," Brooks said, "make sure proper precautions are being taken."

                   "They were not tested," he said of the infamous plants.



                   TOPIC - BUDBOY
                   DATE - 05:46:02 7/27/99
                   FROM - tripp
                   OK- i did the math for you. If you go by what I said you can expect anywhere between 22.5 and 66.5 oz. In other
                   words- 1 to 3 pounds. But remember- it's only an estimate, although an delicious one.


                   TOPIC - REPLY to BUD BOY
                   DATE - 05:39:48 7/27/99
                   FROM - tripp
                   There are no guarantees in how much or little, but you can always check out the Greenman's list of strains and their
                   information at his homepage. This might give yoiu some idea of what to expect. I've heard that under ideal conditions a
                   person can expect about 1/2 to 1 1/1 oz per sq.ft. depending on the sstrain. I've got ideas fot you but it sounds like
                   you've got a good thing going. Good luck!

                                         Link: Greenman's seedbank ratings and cultivation links


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 23:54:07 7/26/99
                   FROM - indulge me one more


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 23:31:29 7/26/99
                   FROM - one more test
                   sorry vic...but mucho gracias


                   TOPIC - ????/
                   DATE - 23:19:34 7/26/99
                   FROM - djchef
                   this is the test thing....he he he


                   TOPIC - romulan
                   DATE - 23:10:31 7/26/99
                   FROM - daddy cool
                   are there different breeders of this strain? i remember a lot of hype about romulan but it doesn't seem as popular. have
                   there been any negative reports?


                   TOPIC - Foliar feeding
                   DATE - 22:27:20 7/26/99
                   FROM - Wondering
                   Do these lil guys take feed from the top or bottom of their leaves. Where do ya spray it?


                   TOPIC - really need this questioned asked thanks....
                   DATE - 22:10:35 7/26/99
                   FROM - budboy
                   I picked up some uncle malacoms soil today and aded some dolmite,worm casting, and some batguano, well i was
                   wondering> If i have 10 mr.nice females and 5 blueberry females and they grow under the right conditons and finish at 3
                   ft, 80 degress in the room with about 60-70 watts per square feet in really really good soil worm casting, giving it
                   orgainic tea at the feeding times, around how much yeild can i get all together?


                   TOPIC - old bud
                   DATE - 21:02:33 7/26/99
                   FROM - tripp
                   thanks for the info. you're probably right about the hermie. I'll look real close after I harvest. Are yo sure about the
                   seeds being worthless? that would be a total bummer. i though that a female that pollinates itself would make 100%
                   female seeds. oh well, i've still got more seeds from the original stash. oh yeah, do you think the seed in the
                   skunkXafghani are going to be worthless too?


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 20:55:13 7/26/99
                   FROM - tripp
                   forgot to put my address!!



                   TOPIC - Tripp
                   DATE - 20:41:17 7/26/99
                   FROM - Old Bud
                   You have a hermm in the mix some where. WW is very sensitive to light timming, I had a few herms of WW and
                   traced it to the co2 gen pilot light. If you probe one of the buds you may find a light green or light yellow male pistol,
                   but dont maul them to hard now. As for the seeds, well herm begets herm so they would have no place in my garden.
                   Good luck


                   TOPIC - a question for the veterans
                   DATE - 20:16:55 7/26/99
                   FROM - tripp
                   I've currently got a White Widow and a Skunk#1 X Afghani that are about 10-15 days from
                   harvest and somehow they have been growing seeds. I have no other plants around that are
                   in the flowering stage and I have never had a male anywhere near them. In fact, I've never
                   even planted, or even SEEN a male plant! But some how I've got big beautiful pecan-looking
                   seeds all over both of them. How is this possible? I thought that maybe one went
                   hermaphrodite on me, but I can't seem to find any male parts to either of them. I'm growing
                   them in a skylight, so I have to literally move them into a dark closet everyday at 8PM and
                   out again at 8Am. I have been late at my schedule probably no more then 6 times out of
                   nearly two months. Anyone got any input? By the way, I'm certinly not complaining, 'cause
                   I'm about to have more dank seeds than I'll know what to do with!



                   TOPIC - How much yeild from my girls?
                   DATE - 20:15:22 7/26/99
                   FROM - Mr.peace aka budboy
                   I picked up some uncle malacoms soil today and aded some dolmite,worm casting, and some batguano, well i was
                   wondering> If i have 10 mr.nice females and 5 blueberry females and they grow under the right conditons and finish at 3
                   ft, 80 degress in the room with about 60-70 watts per square feet in really really good soil worm casting, giving it
                   orgainic tea at the feeding times, around how much yeild can i get all together?


                   TOPIC - magnesium not manganese sorry....nfm
                   DATE - 19:44:56 7/26/99
                   FROM - Cowboy


                   TOPIC - a little copy paste from nutrient disorder solver
                   DATE - 19:40:57 7/26/99
                   FROM - Cowboy
                   Mg can get locked-up by too much Ca, Cl or ammonium nitrogen. Don't overdo Mg or you'll lock up other nutrients.

                   Iron - Fe is unavailable to plants when the pH of the water or soil is too high. If deficient, lower the pH to about 6.5 (for
                   rockwool, about 5.7), and check that you're not adding too much P, which can lock up Fe. Use iron that's chelated for

                   Zinc - Also gets locked out due to high pH. Zn, Fe, and Mn deficiencies often occur together, and are usually from a
                   high pH. Don't overdo the micro-nutrients- lower the pH if that's the problem so the nutrients become available. Foliar
                   feed if the plant looks real bad. Use chelated zinc.

                   And in my own words a good foliar feed can sure help things when there is a disorder,at least keep it going until the
                   problems solved.



                   TOPIC - forgot
                   DATE - 19:25:11 7/26/99
                   FROM - Cowboy
                   forgot to mention it might not be a lack of the nutes but a lock out ,could explain why flushing fixed it up.


                   TOPIC - manganese and a little iron deficent?
                   DATE - 19:21:17 7/26/99
                   FROM - Cowboy
                   That would be my guess beings its at the top starting at the base and white in the middle.


                   TOPIC - nutrients
                   DATE - 16:57:04 7/26/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Those that have been around for some time may remember me posting about a nutrient problem I was having with
                   some blueberry seedlings. I was using recycled soil. I noticed my plants were slowly loosing their zip but seemed
                   healthy none the less. However, suddenly the bluberyies flipped out as shown above. Other strains looked normal.
                   Severe drenching solved the problem and the plants recovered, so my guess was that I experienced a nutrient overdose
                   rather than a nutrient deficiency. Any ideas on what it was? Which nutrient or nutrients? :)


                   TOPIC - Whoa new pic
                   DATE - 16:56:12 7/26/99
                   FROM - Capn Chronic
                   Whats the story with the new pic?


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 01:23:31 7/26/99
                   FROM - H.C.
                   curious george.
                   Comfrey takes up a lot of room that there is no doubt.I have a 40ft. row of it and cut and incorparate it into my piles
                   twice a year. The first time late june when it falls down; and again after frost. I put it in whole,stalks and all. It probably
                   would be best to mulch them but I dont have a mulsher. Maybe thats why I dont seem to get any heat from them.My
                   source of heating up the pile is things from the sea but unless theres a storm, I dont get much of that anymore.
                   Stinging nettle is primairly used because it carries a bacteria that is condusive to the production of various soil micro
                   organisms that are needed to break the pile down.
                   As for quanties, use whats available wet or dry.
                   A little nettle dried goes a long way. Were talking a few big tablespoons of dried product is enough. I believe most of
                   the organic compost pile activators use a bit.
                   hope this helps.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 17:24:44 7/25/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Thanks BD, been hoping you would post about your mushy roots :)

                   Budboy - a good natural source of micronutrients is seaweed products. Kelp meal or similar. If you have any gardeners
                   in your area, then micronutrient ammendments must be taken care of somehow. I still say your local garden or farm
                   supply outlet will be able to give you your best advice. Maybe your water supply will carry all the trace minerals you will
                   need? Gardening/farming is a regional skill and what works in one place doesn't always work elsewhere. Talk about
                   growing tomatoes in a greenhouse, that should get you on the right track.

                   I have no personal experience with Mr Nice, but have grown a few versions of blueberry since 1996. Blueberry is a nice
                   novelty as a second strain in a garden, but not the best "main" strain. It makes great crosses though, and many of it's
                   hybrids make nice "main" crop plants if you know what I mean.


                   TOPIC - thanx Vic high
                   DATE - 15:59:22 7/25/99
                   FROM - budboy
                   If worst comes to worst and I cant find it what should i use? because i live in a preaty small town , also have u heard
                   anything good about mr.nice (g13 x hashplant) and blueberry just got them today in the mail.



                   TOPIC - Trace Elements
                   DATE - 15:58:08 7/25/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi All,
                   Eco sells a prod called "Eco-Trace" it has the following in it,
                   Iron,manganse,zinc,copper,boron,molybdenum,cobalt, and zinc. They say that 0.2 grams(200mg)is needed per gal of
                   nutrient solution. When using a standard "NPK" hydrob soultion that does not contain trace elements. They sell 8oz
                   bottle for 16$us. I found it difficult to find Trace Elements in 3 diffrent local garden centers. The BC shops seem to have
                   all needs covered from the blurbs Ive read about them, even the obscure ones.



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 13:01:38 7/25/99
                   FROM - BD97
                   ----hi ya Vic hope to see in a couple of days dude, live safe!---


                   TOPIC - pythium
                   DATE - 12:58:30 7/25/99
                   FROM - BD97
                   -----i`ve had this twice, too hot of water=no oxygen----brown slimly roots----i`ve used a product called Accend, do not
                   breath this shit in, cut 1 oz. packet under the water and mix well. i`ve seen fresh brilliant white roots come out of brown
                   mushy roots, it`s a sight to behold!!, just amazing!! in about 2 days. adding reg. amounts of h2o2 helps along way in
                   preventing this, but get your heat down and you got it beat!


                   TOPIC - Replace comfrey with stinging nettle?
                   DATE - 12:35:18 7/25/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   If there's a lot of room to cultivate a large garden, growing a great big batch of comfrey for use as a compost additive
                   might make sence.

                   However, since many of us are very limited in the space available, can't we get much of the same effect by just
                   harvesting stinging nettle that grows wild and free? Is there that much of a difference between the nitrogen and trace
                   element content of the two plants?

                   Should either plant material be dried before being placed in the compost? Or can it be done wet or dry, depending on
                   the condition of the previous layer of composted "stuff"? Just the leaves, or the stalks as well?

                   If a batch of nettle leaves were dried, and then chopped-up and put into a batch of soil that was being enriched and
                   mixed in the Fall to cook through the winter, how much should be used per 5 gal. bucket of soil mix?

                   Just curious.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 12:21:54 7/25/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Budboy - they are right in front of you if you look in the right place. Any garden shop or nursery will carry them. Ask the
                   salesperson, they are common with most gardeners, so you won't be blowing your cover, hehe.

                   Another wording is chelated trace elements/minerals.



                   TOPIC - help with vics super soil
                   DATE - 12:15:11 7/25/99
                   FROM - budboy
                   I am going to make vics super soil but i cant find fritted trace elements, what can i use instead and how much because
                   he calls for 1 tps?



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 11:15:55 7/24/99
                   FROM - H.C.
                   I didnt mention that its BOCKING #13 that you want to grow for the best effects.


                   TOPIC - Comfrey
                   DATE - 11:13:59 7/24/99
                   FROM - H.C.
                   Comfrey has more nitrogen in its raw state than fresh hores manure. Although it wont heat up a pile it is none the less
                   a very valuable ingredient for any compost pile.
                   Its chock full of trace elements and all kinds of minerals and nutrients.
                   A Bio-dynamic gardner wouldnt think of building a compost pile without it.
                   I suggest that it be mulshed in the pile.



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 16:54:25 7/23/99
                   FROM - munkey
                   russian comfrey man.

                   other means for addressing an ongoing pythium problem:


                   TOPIC - strange seedlings
                   DATE - 16:29:32 7/23/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi All, af has some seedlings with strange leaves, the first set of leaves have three, instead of one, its the first time
                   ever seeing this out of many starts, any one else ever had a seedling start with 3? Its a sativa indica cross from a
                   friend. A nice weekend to all;-)



                   TOPIC - Comfrey tea fertilizer ?
                   DATE - 11:42:07 7/23/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   Oldtimer had made mention of using a particular variety of comfrey to make an organic fertilizer.

                   Didn't see the post that first mentioned it, but I do recall reading years ago that they had a found a cancer-causing
                   agent in comfrey and that its' use should be curtailed.

                   Does any of this agent carry over to the fertilizer solution?

                   Just curious.


                   TOPIC - pythin around
                   DATE - 07:10:37 7/23/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Danbo & Perp - that was funny :)

                   pythium - I never took the time to look up the specifics, but my understanding coincides with Soul and OT. It may be a
                   waste of time with respect to this crop, but in addion to taking the backup cuts and keeping them sterile, your friend
                   may want to keep the infected plants and treat them. Learning how to control the disease will be a good way to learn
                   how to prevent it in the future. There are a couple hydro BC growers here that have experienced the brown slime on
                   their roots these last couple summers. I think aeriation and cooling the res were what solved the problem, but to be
                   honest, I didn't pay too close attention. Maybe one of them can pipe up.



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 05:06:59 7/23/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Vic you have mail.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 04:18:23 7/23/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Hi Soul I agree!


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 04:16:19 7/23/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   it means the old compost still has a lot of nitrogen left in it!


                   TOPIC - Pything up rope
                   DATE - 04:14:10 7/23/99
                   FROM - Soul
                   Loop_~ I looked for a reference to back me up, but I didn't find anything:

                   IMO, root disease like pythium cannot "follow" a cutting from an infected plant as it has no roots. The cuttings, if given
                   a healthy environment should be normal & healthy.


                   TOPIC - Viagra!
                   DATE - 19:27:18 7/22/99
                   FROM - Danbo
                   So if my stem droops , I just use viagra? It was estrogen
                   a few years back as I heard it. Before that plain asprin.
                   I have the feeling it all just changes an underlying ph


                   TOPIC - lupins
                   DATE - 19:18:22 7/22/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   Vic--I found the same with my variation of yer mix--the lupins hardly moved once above the dirt but all my other flowers,
                   particularly sunflowers, seem to like it.


                   TOPIC - Viagra!!!...Ha!
                   DATE - 18:38:07 7/22/99
                   FROM - Perp
                   Sorry I ain't ben round much.....gotta share this! Ha! It was inevitable, an' ya might'a herd it....BUT (they?) said 3 Tabs
                   (@ $16 Ea.) ouch!...dissolved in a Gal.? added longevity to some plants!...do your own search.....I heard it on L.A.
                   news radio. Gotta run.....

                   ....mus be a hormone derivitive????? Ha!


                   TOPIC - this and that.
                   DATE - 17:44:29 7/22/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   O.K Big bud - yep, it was due for a change a while back :) This location (where I live/surf) has been stripped of anything
                   cannabis related, including pics. I'll see what is archived on the website someplace. Anyone have a good pic they
                   would like to see here?

                   squirly - take some bagweed seeds and toss them in your backyard and then go back and collect what grew in the fall.
                   Sorry, that's the best you'll get here :) You may want to try http://www.cannabinoid.com/boards/ or www.overgrow.com.
                   They are much better suited to answer your question.

                   Occam & Trelaway - this may be different depending on where you shop, but I think part of Hothouse's success (in
                   addition to the marketing) is what it has to compete against, US field tomatoes. Now I'm not hacking US produce, but
                   in the case of the US tomatoes, I think they are picked while still green (only way to ship this far) and ripened while in
                   storage using ethylene gas and not the sun. This leaves them pretty tasteless so you are stuck comparing two
                   tasteless products. The hothouse ones are prettier though, haha. What ripens on the patio is so much more tasty
                   whether I grow them organically or not. BTW - my tomatoes love my used soil mix ;). Pulled the cannabis stump and
                   planted two tomatoe plants per pot, haha. The honeysuckle hates it :( So do the lupins. I think they like more drainage.

                   OT - that was great news on the legal front. Glad to see it won't be just Canada contributing to American moral
                   corruption ;)


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 17:26:02 7/22/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi All, Ive enjoyed the past couple of days here, the viewpoints shared, have refined my consideration of both sides,
                   IMO "the next right thing" is keeping things as simple and natural as possiable, trying to apply this within ones means
                   is what its all about;-)


                   TOPIC - The issue of quality...
                   DATE - 17:15:03 7/22/99
                   FROM - occam
                   Certainly the greenhouse industry is not enviro-friendly. I will not attempt to defend them.
                   The quality of the produce is a separate issue. The stats I used were obtained by Agriculture Canada biologists and are
                   considered accurate, (at least by them). When properly grown, the taste/quality of tomatoes has more to do with
                   species, time of harvest and handling/storage, not whether they are grown hydroponically or in soil; the same applies
                   for cannabis.
                   trelaway- let's not either of us assume we speak for all the consumers who choose to buy the product. It's just possible
                   that some of them have discriminating tastes as much as you do.
                   Enjoyed the debate, there are many paths to heaven...
                   Thanks for being patient Vic.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 15:40:11 7/22/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   The carotene and vit C content vary vastly between varieties of tomatoes so unless they were tested like to like are not
                   that relevant. They could be GMO enhanced do your laws oblige them to tell you? $152 million that must represent a
                   lot of chemical effluent even with recovery systems there will still be a considerable tonnage of chemicals to dispose of
                   each year how are they disposed of ? land fill, dumped at sea, into the water courses or maybe put into containers and
                   shipped to a third world country it has to go somewhere. In producing the pure chemical salts needed for hydro large
                   amounts of of waste chemical byproducts are produced including heavy metals. Then there are the greenhouse gasses
                   and acidic aerosols released to the atmosphere. The electricity and gas used to make the chemicals and run the
                   greenhouses. To my mind they are dam expensive tomatoes without thinking about what they taste like! Its just a
                   matter of perspective. Ot1


                   TOPIC - how to grow
                   DATE - 15:10:43 7/22/99
                   FROM - squirlly
                   whats the cheapest and simplest way to grow


                   TOPIC - vic, more travelling shitbags
                   DATE - 14:20:08 7/22/99
                   FROM - munkey
                   hey vic, i saw a new chicken manure product today, it looked like good stuff: 4.5-3.3-2.5, with 8% available calcium and
                   pH of 7.0. claimed to be organic...but then i noticed it was "Imported from Holland"!
                   more world-travellin' shitbags!



                   TOPIC - bags of tasteless water
                   DATE - 13:04:35 7/22/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   Lets not pretend people are buying hothouse tomatoes because of taste. We buy them because they're pretty, appear
                   'perfect' and are heavily marketed as 'buying local'.



                   TOPIC - Hothouse Tomatoes
                   DATE - 10:54:09 7/22/99
                   FROM - occam
                   Tests on hydroponic greenhouse grown tomatoes by P.A.R.C. have shown 28% more Vitamin A and 12% more
                   Vitamin C (average) than field grown equivalents.
                   Press release:
                   >>Vancouver, B.C. ñ BC Hot House, growers and marketers of greenhouse-grown produce, ended 1998 with a record
                   breaking $152 million in sales. Thatís an increase of 65 per cent over the previous yearís $92 million in sales. And,
                   since 1992, BC Hot House has seen sales increase dramatically from $27 million.<<
                   Bags of tasteless water? A matter of opinion, definitely.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 10:14:38 7/22/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Good news from England
                   Colin Davis a spinal injury sufferer announced to the press earlier this year that he was cultivating cannabis and using it
                   to relieve his pain. That it worked better than anything else he had tried. So he was setting up a the first medical
                   marijuana Cooperative in Great Britain to supply marijuana to fellow sufferers that wanted it !!!
                   Within a few days his home was raided by the police who found 26 near mature plants and charged him with
                   Cultivation. Possession of marijuana and an additional charge of having the intent to supply.

                   Yesterday in the prime ministers question time Tony Blare was asked if he didn't think that the heavy prison sentences
                   given out to medical users was wrong. Replied that the government had no intention of changing the laws on marijuana
                   and it was down to the law courts how they sentenced and implemented the law. ìNot very sympathetic.î

                   Today the Judge and jury at Manchester crown court have given a complete acquittal on all charges against Colin
                   Davis. This sets a president and it is difficult to see how the crown can ever prosecute a medical grower or user again.
                   It also shows how completely out of touch our government is with the consensus of the general public.

                   I just had to let you folk over the pond know that we are doing our bit to!

                   All the best Ot1.



                   TOPIC - picture change
                   DATE - 08:57:39 7/22/99
                   FROM - O.K.vally BIG BUD
                   hey vic..
                   i enjoy this page and hve got some great info hear.
                   if i had a scanner id love to send a pic of some healthy ones ....pleeeeeze change yours..its a pretty sad sight


                   TOPIC - pythium
                   DATE - 07:55:38 7/22/99
                   FROM - loop da
                   There's a guy over at overgrow.com (general indoor) that has a problem with Pythium in his NFT. He's not sure if he
                   should start over by cloning his plants or try to save his crop(he's only a few weeks in). I really feel for this guy because
                   I could very easily be in the same position. I grow with water culture and take my clones for the next crop off of my
                   plants I have growing ( I have no set mothers, I clone my clones). Someone wrote that there is no use to take clones off
                   of the growing plants because they will already have pythium. Does anyone KNOW if this is true. Makes me
                   re-evaluate my current methods. It seems you could lose a whole cycle (or more ) if you had to start over and grow new
                   mothers. This has me freaked out a bit and would like to learn as much about pythium as possible. Anyone have good
                   preventive measures (other than being very clean and sterile) and cures if it hits? Any good sources of info? I want to
                   learn from others mistakes rather than my own ;-)

                   Interesting tread on the organics/hydro thing. I've got a few things to babble about but I just noticed I'm late for work.



                   TOPIC - organics
                   DATE - 07:06:09 7/22/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   excellent post Munkey - that was an effective way of clarifying this isn't a black and white subject, but that it has many
                   layers of gray. Goes with my comments that everything we do has an environmental pricetag. All we can do is when
                   presented with two paths, try to make an educated descision which will create the least environmental damage. One
                   needs to consider the money cost as well to some degree. If an "environmental" product is 5 times the cost of a
                   traditional one, then you have to work 5 times longer to pay for it. Most of us have environmentally unfriendly jobs.

                   Also, not all descisions will have an immediate benefit, but are stepping stones to a greener situation. Buying recycled
                   paper is a good example. It used to be a very dumb purchase because it was so much more expensive. But by
                   supporting it, it eventually became more cost effective and now is a greener option. Just my warped 2 cents :)


                   TOPIC - oldtimer
                   DATE - 05:46:33 7/22/99
                   FROM - munkey
                   yes, oldtimer, we are using "organics" in the generic sense; most "organic" puff growers are actually using
                   "transitional" methods and materials (at best). we get our nutrients in stores, rather than from our own waste-stream,
                   and many of us "throw away" our used media, rather than recycling it. this sort of thing definitely violates the spirit of
                   organic culture, not to mention the letter of its principles...

                   because of the clandestine nature of our grows, most of us cannot integrate our production into the larger scheme of an
                   organic farm or landholding. it's much more difficult to achieve "certifiable" organic practices in a closet grow! is electric
                   lighting organic?!

                   and the reason behind our choice of these "organic" methods is often based on pragmatic standards of quality: the end
                   product is better to smoke and more marketable because of its quality (rather than because of its "organic" label).

                   so the truth of the matter is that this method of cultivation doesn't bear much relation at all to the principles behind
                   organic sustainable agriculture. that said, it is possible to try to minimize the damage one does.

                   obviously the once-used, then-discarded rock-wool, run-to-waste, etc, system is no better in principle than a polluting
                   factory farm growing pigs. another thing to consider is the origin of our various nutrients: by-products of the destructive
                   fishing industry, imported guano from the caribbean and peru (! imagine sitting next to a bag of guano on the 747; pretty
                   crazy to think of bags of shit travelling around the world!), bog-destroying peat-extraction in canada, etc. if you can,
                   growing in your own organic compost is much saner. if you can...

                   overgrow, by any means!


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 03:47:51 7/22/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Vic you have mail!!!


                   TOPIC - oh yeah...
                   DATE - 02:10:22 7/22/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   I have to agree with the hydro tomato thing. BC hot house tomatoes are just bags of tasteless water, imo.


                   TOPIC - thoughts on steroids
                   DATE - 02:07:23 7/22/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   They've only been around since WW2. One of the fears to come out of human use is that genetic effects may carry
                   thru and crop up generations after their intial use, ie grandkids, great-grandkids.

                   I'm neither a geneticist nor chemist but an avid bodybuilder who took a serious look at 'roids a decade ago. Cows get
                   them for the same reason Arnold took them, to increase muscle mass.

                   Imo, humans should limit manipulation to breeding.

                   GMO's, steroids and the like are examples of human arrogance, thinking we can alter nature, safely, with a few
                   decades of research.


                   TOPIC - Good point.
                   DATE - 21:13:58 7/21/99
                   FROM - Old Bud
                   OT1 your comments on BSE are well taken, I have once again over looked the larger picture. However not all steroids
                   are bad, in fact some are used as medicine. I live in rural canada with many free range cattle ranchers as neibours,
                   some are certified organic most are not. The steroids are used at young age to ward off common flu and cold viruses,
                   the cows are never stuck in a feed lot they eat idigenius flora during the summer, hay and grain over the winter. These
                   are not the cattle your government is trying to stop but they do fall in through the cracks and will be band with the lot.


                   TOPIC - organic or not
                   DATE - 20:02:06 7/21/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   OT & Occam - I have no problem seeing your comments/rants dominating this page for a bit :)

                   I think we have to accept responsibility for our surroundings and the "crappy" world within which we live. We don't try
                   and save the environment for the environment's sake, it couldn't give a shit what we do to it. It simply adapts. We
                   protect it for our own benefit, we are the ones that benefit for keeping it healthy. I think too many forget that.

                   Don't get me wrong, my lifestyle isn't what you would call environmentally friendly. Everything we do has an
                   environmental pricetag, even our existance has an environmental cost. I just think we sometimes need to do things
                   because it's the right thing to do.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 18:02:17 7/21/99
                   FROM - occam
                   Hi oldtimer1...your definition of organic is one that makes some sense...my general smartass attitude about that word
                   is because of how it is used in an offhand way by some people. Semantics, really. I'm not really into pissing in the
                   water supply either; my post was meant to provide another side, (dark side?) of the story, and perhaps provoke debate.
                   Be true to your convictions, occam.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 17:57:28 7/21/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Hi Vic hope you are ok! Sorry about the rant below may be you should delete it its not quite on topic.
                   All the best Ot1


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 17:41:05 7/21/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Old Bud none of the things you mentioned would be classified as organic! As in organic growing terms in Europe. For a
                   seed to be classified as organic it has to be grown on land that has been cultivated completely free of any chemicals,
                   pesticides or fungicides for at least 3 years and cultivated to organic standards and the parent come from the same
                   system. The same goes for animals, If you brought a calf from market that came from a normal farm and let it loose on
                   an organic farm the farm would loose its licence to sell its produce as organic and the farm classified as contaminated
                   with chemical effluent. Now this might seem nuts to you but if you buy a piece of organic beef here you know that it
                   has been free to roam and feed on land that hasn't had chemicals of any sort on it for at least 3 years before the meat
                   you have was born. That as a bovine it has never been fed meat by products, that any grain or concentrate comes from
                   organic sources. that it was never fed hormone growth promoters routine antibiotics or any food with GMOís in. The
                   stock levels are worked out so that the shit produced is in balance with the land being able to use it completely with no
                   risk of runoff. Oh yes and no animal that has come from the organic heard has ever had BSE the number of people
                   dying from this awful prion are still rising. Your government is threatening us with a trade war because we donít want to
                   import beef with nearly 200 times the level of steroids in it that would ban an athlete for life! What is the real cost of the
                   millions of gallons of pig shit in the Fraser valley, Pollution, the loss of thousands of family farms and a few more billion
                   in the pockets of the dole corporation or whoever owns them!! is this really progress?
                   occam I dont feel warm and fuzzy just doing the best I can in this crappy world!


                   TOPIC - EEK!
                   DATE - 16:27:23 7/21/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   drats, I'm an organic fan, but T2, I think there is a couple generalizations and typos in there that hurts the overall
                   message. The smell argument is what got my attention the most. I can follow the argument that extra respiration could
                   translate to extra smell, especially if genetics alone were responsible for odours. However, it's been my experience that
                   diet is also a major factor, and that organically grown plants tend to stink more. Especially those organic solutions
                   containing sugars such as molasses, hehe. I assumed the two week flowering statement was a typo, ;)

                   T2, I know you were the messanger, hope you don't take this personally :)


                   TOPIC - Hydro pollution?
                   DATE - 16:18:26 7/21/99
                   FROM - Old Bud
                   I have heard this mentioned several times over the last few years. Here are a few points to consider.
                   1. the solution to pollution is dillution.
                   2. if 1 pound of manure is 'organic' then 2,000,000 must be as well? (ask the fraser valley residents about pig manure).
                   3. Taste is and will always be an individual thing, hydro/organic, indica/sativa, joint/bong etc.

                   I grow both organic and hydro for diff. reasons. I like to play with the pumps and do dads in hydro, taste is great too. I
                   like organic to strat a new strain from seed and to maintain mothers. Its easier to care for plants when you dont know
                   they're growing traits in soil.

                   I'm not saying screw the enviroment, but the small amount of nutes I dump into my drain field does not compare to the
                   amount of pollution many of us generate everyday (cars, planes, electricity, etc). Just my 2cents.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 16:13:55 7/21/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   We have done a lot of research in our co-op as to the amount of rooting in the final pot to get the best yield and have
                   exchanged info on this matter in the past with Soul Vic and others. Taking into account our varieties have sat heavy
                   genes, we have found that the final yield is the greatest when the cutting has rooted through the rootball and the start
                   of fine feeder roots have started to net the surface of the rootball before going to 12/12 hrs. Plants flowered earlier say
                   when the roots have just made it through the rootball but before the feeder are forming, produce about 25% less crop
                   weight and never make the same root mass. Going several days past the optimum rooting time and the final yield
                   starts to drop off again and by the time its a week its about 25% down again. 10 years ago we were getting 250 g per
                   kw of light about 1/2 an ounce a sq ft now the co-op average is 1.5 kilos per kw about 2.6 ounces per sq ft and the
                   co-op record still unbroken from last year is just over 2 kilos. Getting yields like this doesn't just come from the right
                   timing in relation to rooting but getting a whole number of critical things right. Other contributing factors are that the
                   lights have improved a lot and the selection of high yielding genetics to mum up and keep. It is ironic that one of our
                   highest yielding selections has only had to be recloned once last year just before its 16 th birthday! Interestingly Soul
                   whoís vars are more indica than ours and Vicís a lot more indica seem to have similar experiences with rooting through
                   that we do. I have only grown their vars from seed at the present time and haven't grown any from cuttings yet so I cant
                   talk from experience. I have grown fruit veg and puff organically for over 30 years, to me its the only way!

                   nodose I found C99 and P75a not to be heavy feeders but they do seem to like slightly more nitrogen in the balance
                   especially when flowering. Their flowering is so explosively rapid that they may need the extra to help processing the
                   other nutrients.
                   As far as comfrey is concerned I knew Laurence when he was alive and did the bocking clone selections. I got my
                   comfrey plants from him and use it in my compost, the one you want is called ìbocking # 14î and was selected for
                   producing the highest amount of potassium and the lowest lignin, it is ideal for making liquid fertiliser it is a magical
                   plant. I think you can find this clone selection in the states as root cutting offsets quite cheaply in organic magazines!

                   all the best Ot1


                   TOPIC - Devil's advocate, mwaahaahaa...
                   DATE - 14:28:27 7/21/99
                   FROM - occam
                   A couple of points for debating purposes, :)
                   #1- Ask a greenhouse producer or the biologists/researchers at Agriculture Canada about the quality/flavor of their
                   tomatoes and you will probably get differing opinions...
                   #2- Hydroponics does not necessarily involve pumps, tubing, etc.,; handwatering in soiless media (peat/perlite, etc.) is
                   #3- Well, okay, drain to waste systems are probably not good for the the environment.
                   No offence intended, but I'll stick with what works. I don't need the warm fuzzy feeling of being an "organic" grower,
                   whatever that is. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating", or something like that.


                   TOPIC - yet more reasons to go organic!
                   DATE - 13:59:43 7/21/99
                   FROM - t2


                   THREE REASONS TO GO BIO
                   (from the 1996 Positronics Catalogue)
                   Biologically grown Marijuana yields the best quality, as you well know! Just picture a greenhouse full of tomatoes; one
                   half in the full earth, while the other half is in rockwool and fed with minerals. Everyone knows that tomatoes grown in
                   earth give more flavor, and top quality. The same goes for Marijuana. Only top-quality Marijuana is worth growing;
                   everyone can remember their best smoke ever, and all average qualities sink into oblivion.

                   Bio is safer. Check out the Soft Secret reports, 80% percent of busted growers got into trouble because they caused
                   water damage or got complaints about bad odors. Plants grown in water give off more evaporation than plants grown in
                   soil. That's why plants grown hydro-style smell a lot more. Hydro plants smell the whole time, even while they're
                   growing. Plants grown in soil actually only smell during the two weeks they're in bloom. So there's much less chance
                   of causing trouble with unwanted odors. Pumps, tubes and valves can be interesting, especially for salespeople, but
                   are risky for the smoking grower. Something always goes wrong and then you and your neigbors are all inconvenienced
                   by water damage. Growing in soil, you only water the plants while you are there, which is much safer.

                   Artificial fertilizers are bad for the environment. The concentration and intensity is so high that most of the fertilizer
                   rinses through and ends up in the ground water. The production of these fertilizers is damaging for the environment, half
                   of the Cadmium in the Dutch environment comes from a handful of fertilizer factories. Professional growers have access
                   to expensive nutrition-computers that keep track of the nutritional value of the liquid in their greenhouses. Home
                   growers cannot afford this luxury, and have to regularely refresh their nutritional liquid, weekly rinse away a great
                   amount of unused fertilizer through the sewers, creating an extra strain on the environment.



                   TOPIC - Overgrow.com is
                   DATE - 13:45:50 7/21/99
                   FROM - Moose
                   upgrading its server today, or soemthing like that. I read a notice in the announcements forum to the effect that the
                   upgrade would take place on 21 July. Also in that post was the suggestion that the Weedbase search engine might be
                   back in operation today as one of the results of the upgrade.



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 13:39:23 7/21/99
                   FROM - joe blow
                   Anyone having problems getting into overgrow.com? I can't even get a page up without entering a username and
                   Seems very odd....just happened today.


                   TOPIC - thanks again everybody (esp. Shaggy/Trelaway)
                   DATE - 12:44:10 7/21/99
                   FROM - damion
                   appreciate the butter and oil advice. Good to see you Shaggy and Trelaway. If anybody is interested in any woodstock
                   details, I'd be happy to help here or in a more appropriate place since it's off topic. But have a great weekend and stay
                   safe everybody! Damion


                   TOPIC - sb@operamail.com
                   DATE - 11:29:36 7/21/99
                   FROM - sb
                   Could you email me w/your E-addy please? add your PGP key if you use it.

                   PS: I'm ashamed to admit that I allowed the B to die due to neglect on my part.



                   TOPIC - organic way
                   DATE - 08:15:15 7/21/99
                   FROM - BushyOlderGrower
                   I likes Hibes analysis of why grow organic a while back, is good to see someone else agree with him too. Catalyst is to
                   start up the bacterial culture that will allow for good uptake of nutrients from the organic mix. I had one disagreement
                   with souls tips and that was the end of veg and having the plant fully rooted. I have plants starting shoot when 1 ft
                   bushes and put them into flower then so I get some growth in the flowering room, they get just the right height and I feel
                   this is a way to maximize your yield. Timing is everything, go for the shoot! Good to see so many believe in organic
                   indoor. OVERGROW--PEACE!!! BushyOlderGrower


                   TOPIC - trelaway, a few notes & caveats; hibe
                   DATE - 07:47:01 7/21/99
                   FROM - nodose
                   trelaway, soul's organic technique and formulations are excellent, but it's important to note that the formulae need to be
                   tweaked to accommodate different strains of weed. soul's predominantly sativa mix feeds HEAVILY: other strains that
                   are more indica-dominant don't need as much feeding, and over-feeding is definitely to be avoided if possible (reduces
                   yield and quality).

                   also, there are different methods of making tea. although the teabags work, they retain alot of the "base" material. imho
                   it's better to get that stuff into the mix, even if it wants to settle out. to achieve this one can use a technique from the
                   apothecary, "succussion". this means adding the base material to a bottle of water (to which one can also add a
                   wetting agent), capping it and shaking it madly for as long as possible. an old paint mixer would be ideal for this

                   the original technique calls for banging the container repeatedly on a hard surface, but this has foreseeable
                   consequences ;-)

                   after the prolonged shaking, allow the contents to settle for a minute and pour off the liquid, keeping the undissolved
                   matter in the bottle. add more liquid and wetting agent, and repeat. usually 2 times is optimal. you'll never get
                   everything to dissolve, but you'll be surprised at how much DOES.

                   and needless to say, you want to dump everything into your final tea, dissolved or undissolved, and keep it well-stirred
                   while watering, to keep the "chunks" in suspension. also, make a point of not always watering the plants in the same
                   order: otherwise the "dregs" of the tea will always go to the same plant(s) and the nutrients will be unevenly distributed.

                   hibe, good to see ya buddy, i think we knew each other in a previous life (and i ain't talkin no newage doodoo heah!) ;-)

                   i read something about the differences in root physiology between bare-root hydro and "soil" systems. there were
                   definite differences, but the article didn't go into their relation to differences in the "aboveground" part of the plants. the
                   difference was in the ratio of "tap" roots to lateral "fine" roots. if there is root chemistry or metabolism that occurs
                   predominantly in one type of root over the other, then that could obviously be manifest in the rest of the plant.

                   there's also the obvious difference between the chemistry a bare-root environment is gonna support, and that of a "soil"
                   type matrix...

                   hey, i also ran across something that relates to your earlier experiments: the use of Comfrey (herb) as a flowering fert.
                   specifically, in Gro-Mag vol 1, issue 4, there's an article about the use of russian comfrey as a blossom promoter.
                   apparently the comfrey-derived nutrient "far exceeded its commercial competitors" in performance. the contact orgs
                   given with the article are both in the UK, unfortunately, but the article gives instructions for growing the plant and
                   making it into organic goodies.

                   hope some of this is useful :)


                   TOPIC - m.o.m.
                   DATE - 21:03:29 7/20/99
                   FROM - malahat
                   Call me.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 14:05:37 7/20/99
                   FROM - hibe
                   Nice post nodose.You mentioned a couple o` good reasons for the hydro-lack.I`ve been researching one other
                   possibility and would be interested in some feedback from the biology/plant physiology types..

                   In immersed-root hydro systems(ie.NFT,DWC),will the root system grow the same feeder/water root ratio they would
                   grow in a supported soil environment?If no,Do you think there is any difference to the way that plant would grow,
                   express traits, and bear fruit with an altered root configuration/environment? Do you think that washing the roots with a
                   stream of nutri-flow is good,bad or indifferent? And finally,Can you make plants adapt to this type of rootzone
                   environment in a month? year? 10? 100? 10,000?Never,in a million years??????

                   I need some answers...preferrably by someone who knows the biology of roots. hibe



                   TOPIC - expert testimony
                   DATE - 13:47:50 7/20/99
                   FROM - BushyOlderGrower
                   How can a U.S. citizen testify on the prices of pot without creating suspicion on himself. We cant openly testify about
                   what we do and know about. Oppression is the rule of law in USA and we want to help but I don't see how I could.
                   Since you would need a local expert to accurately testify about market values in the area and a local dealer would be
                   nuts to admit to this expert knowledge. Why not try another approach, was your client growing in his home? It is your
                   right as a mans home is his castle, at least when I asked a real smart one armed older lawyer what he thought about
                   me growing a big old bush in my house. He said so but he is dead now. You can help us fight to beat the case in court
                   and the supreme court would never hear the case. Medical marijuana kills all arguements that we can't choose to grow
                   our own herbs and to have the right to use them. I am a herbalist and I can say that marijuana is the most valuable
                   medicinal herb on Earth. Wish I could help but I am working many ways to further the cause. Too paraniod to testify
                   about my knowledge in your court sorry. BushyOlderGrower Hey and I used chem ferts befor I went organic and they
                   were not as dark green and healthy, had a tendency to burn easier with chem ferts. I use pure blend grow and bloom
                   formulas, entirely organic, mix is good potting soil 1/4 worm castings 2 table spoons dry lime 1/2 cup bone meal and
                   1/2 cup blood meal all start to finish in 2 gal pots with a few earthworms and oh yeah I start the pots with Alaska
                   Start-up seedling and transplant food. It has b-1 and yeast with sugars that quickly starts the organic uptake of
                   nutrients. I use small pots cause I have limited head room any way and I do the bushy plantlet march as I call it. 2:1
                   hps to MH later in flower. My plants hands are 12 inches and the 2 foot bushes have 1/2 inch thick stalks with 8 colas
                   average. Love the vigor of indoor organic. BushyOlderGrower PEACE


                   TOPIC - louis....
                   DATE - 12:46:50 7/20/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   This is a clipboard file I kept of Mr.Soul's organics and if you click on the bcga icon above you'll hit the main page to
                   this board where you'll find some discussions on soil:

                   1. My soil mix is (by volume) 50% worm castings, 25% Pro-Mix, and 25% perlite.
                   Simple as that.

                   2. I feed with tea at EVERY watering of my plants & since they're flowered in
                   2-gallon containers - that's usually every day!

                   3. The teas I use are made by soaking a "tea bag" (got mine at Worm's Way) in a
                   5-gallon bucket of pH = 6.2 water. Agitate and manipulate the bag a LOT to
                   release as much of the "goodies" as possible - the water looks like it came from a
                   mud puddle when you've got it right. I do one thing I've never heard other
                   growers mention doing - I measure the ppm of my tea.

                   Here are the contents of the tea bag, depending on growth stage:

                   Vegetative => 1/2 cup each of PSG & worm castings. I also add a 1/2 cup of
                   Maxi-Crop liquid seaweed, plus two Tablespoons of Alaska fish emulsion to the
                   (I shoot for a ppm = 1000)

                   Flowering (weeks 0-4)=> 1/2 cup each of PSG & High Phosphorus bat guano. I
                   also add a 1/2 cup of Maxi-Crop to the water. (ppm 1250 - 1500 )

                   Flowering (weeks 4-7)=> 1/2 cup each High Phosphorus bat guano and worm
                   castings. (shifting ppm from 1500 -> 1000)

                   During the final week of flowering, many folks choose to use plain, pH-adjusted
                   water for "clearing" but I don't. I haven't noticed any difference between when I
                   have & when I haven't "cleared". This seems reasonable when growing
                   organically - why clear? Clear WHAT? They're living in the medium in which
                   they've evolved for millions of years!

                   A few other hints:

                   SOAK the pots thoroughly when watering, then allow them to become "light"
                   when lifted before watering again...the plants LOVE a short drying out period.
                   The amount of time it takes for the plants to dry out is constantly getting
                   SHORTER as they grow...be AWARE!

                   Water BY HAND! At least get an accurate feel for how much the average plant
                   needs by hand-watering before setting up a drip system or whatever.

                   Transplant you clones into the container you plan to flower them in & veg them
                   until their roots systems are FULLY established before flowering them - this
                   will MINIMIZE stretching...check this out for yourself, it works!


                   TOPIC - organic vs. chemical
                   DATE - 11:26:37 7/20/99
                   FROM - Louis
                   I' right now growing some beautifull all organic g-13, and juicy fruit, there doing great!!! much better than last year when
                   i used chemical feertilizers. Any feedback? What do you think? Any good organic recipies out there?


                   TOPIC - correction
                   DATE - 10:41:58 7/20/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   The gauno in the post below used during veg as a top dressing is 10-3-1, not 5-1-1.


                   TOPIC - Super Soil & A Trace Elements Question.
                   DATE - 09:07:50 7/20/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi All,af started out his 1st grow with supersoil, and its easy to work with and forgiving, hes been recycling it, by mixing
                   the older soil 40%-50% with freshly made up new supersoil, with allowences of extra components for used up
                   amendments in the older mix, and as trelaway uses a occasional fert, af uses a 5-1-1 bat gauno in veg, and a 1-15-.5
                   bat gauno in flower,occasionally as a top dressing, also in flower each few waterings he includes a teasponn per gal of
                   liquid kelp. He just ordered some Earth Juice Catyalst, to add to his gals menu, anybody have comments about EJ
                   Catylst? Id really like to read them.Also he has a bottle of "Eco Trace" trace elements, but does not know how to
                   utilize them, can anyone lend a hand? The manafuctures catalog only has a recomdation for hydro systems @
                   .02-grams per gal of soultion.TIA


                   PS: The Peak 19 F2s, are dry enough to sample, and they are very tasty allready, when cured they should taste out
                   standing, the one gal thats been harvested sticks to the Stonehedge traits and shes as impressive as the mom that
                   she came from, wonderfull AM smoke, non debiltating high energy puff, one of those highs where random thought
                   activity is noticeable, really stimulates creativity. The nugs were very frosty and sticky.They are average yielders, but
                   thats only a few gals sampled, thats the nice part about F2s, they are free so you can, over time keep growing them
                   out, looking for the special mommas.


                   TOPIC - organic/chem
                   DATE - 13:59:12 7/19/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   I've spent the last year learning to grow organically (did a few years of successful hydro) and what i've done is keep a
                   20-20-20 around and a 15-30-15. I've used them less and less but they're great if you can't figure out a problem.

                   Get ones with a complete profile, ie. micronutes. Mostly I've relied on a good flush and a feed of chem fert, with ph
                   check, and it's gotten me thru most of the problem plants.


                   TOPIC - kelp & maxicrop, organics: chronic
                   DATE - 06:48:51 7/19/99
                   FROM - nodose
                   chronic, maxicrop is made from norwegian kelp. it is very finely ground and made into a concentrate that you mix with
                   water. make sure you don't get the maxicrop "fish" by accident, the bottles are similar.

                   you can also buy kelp meal or powder. "algamin" is another norwegian kelp product, and there are other regional
                   brands (Espoma kelp meal is pretty cheap by comparison, though it's made with the same kelp).
                   kelp meal can be added directly to your soil mix, or you can soak it to make tea (1-2 tablespoon/gallon). finally, you
                   can use kelp tea for foliar feeding, the plants LOVE it...

                   on the question of organics: although some growers manage to produce very good quality bud using chem ferts, the
                   concensus among "former chem-hydro growers" that i talk to is, organics produce tastier, smellier bud OVERALL, with
                   less tweaking.

                   the EXCELLENT UK publication of indoor gardening, Gro-Mag, had an article in vol 1, issue 4, titled "Taste Test". the
                   article described a "blind" taste-test of 6 batches of tomatoes, one grown with organic compost and teas, the other 5
                   grown with 5 different hydroponic nutrient systems in an NFT system(maxi-crop green, power-gro, optimum,
                   phostrogen, earth juice; the 6th nutrient was a failure and wasn't included in the test).

                   the results were clear, and confirmed by a second tasting: the compost-grown tomatoes were sweeter,
                   stronger-flavored, stronger-scented, etc. the organic NFT tomatoes (earth-juice) placed 2nd overall, but had less flavor.

                   there are a couple of obvious reasons for this: so-called "complete" hydro nutrients are FAR from complete (most
                   contain only 15-20 mineral compounds, whereas natural soils [and well-balanced organic nutrient programs] contain up
                   to 100). organic nutrients also contain natural growth-boosters (plant hormones like auxins and cytokinins, vitamins,
                   sugars, microbes) that hydro ferts typically lack...

                   if EQUAL CARE is taken using organic and non-organic techniques, i think you'll find that the organic systems
                   ALWAYS produce healthier, tastier weed that keeps better. and the EQUAL CARE part is critical: poorly grown organic
                   bud will not be as good as carefully-tended "chem hydro" bud (which can be pretty damn good if it's done right)...

                   best of luck, GO ORGANIC


                   TOPIC - One more thing..
                   DATE - 00:38:16 7/19/99
                   FROM - chronic man
                   Is kelp meal the same as maxicrop???
                   cHrOnIc man


                   TOPIC - Vics super soil again...
                   DATE - 00:35:59 7/19/99
                   FROM - chronic man
                   Jay..SO I take it that you use the mix then? Have you ever used chemical ferts?? And how do they compare to organic
                   to you?? If anyone else has any input, I'd love to hear it. I know most of you will say the taste is better, but are they
                   cHrOnIc man


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 23:12:36 7/18/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Jay, you pretty much covered it.

                   Worker -it's a big world, you willing to fly in the witness from anywhere? :)


                   TOPIC - expert witness re: street values
                   DATE - 21:27:14 7/18/99
                   FROM - worker
                   I am a criminal defence lawyer. I require an expert witness to testify at a sentencing about the yield per plant, the level
                   of sophistication of a grow operation and the likely street value of the product at maturity etc. Please Email me if you
                   know of someone.


                   TOPIC - chronic man and super soil
                   DATE - 17:08:02 7/18/99
                   FROM - jay
                   hello chronic,dont think we have really met before..the picture at the top of the page illustrates romberries in 10 gallon
                   pots and in the supersoil...the soil mixture is designed for 6 weeks of veg and then going to flower light cycles.vic has
                   reused the soil by just planting a clone in and using fish ferts for veg as the nitrogen source will be dipleted in the
                   soil,but i wouldnt recomend using soil more then for 2 crops as many diseases can linger in the soil if not careful,im
                   sure vic can shed a little light on that if you ask..it is quite a simple mix and yes just straight water..


                   TOPIC - Blue report
                   DATE - 13:55:36 7/18/99
                   FROM - 67ed
                   Hello everyone:
                   I just wanted to say, I haven't really been busted...at least, not for this...
                   Say, I started two Blueberries in late April, and planted in a field..I kept thinking short, slow-growing indica...After one
                   month, the tallest was two feet or more!
                   I had to cut back to the first node...now I have short, manageable bushes..I plan on digging them up around the first of
                   Oct., and bringing them home to where I can protect them on the cool nights...Will keep posted if anyone is
                   Also, I have some Niagara which are indicating sex now(outdoors at the 37th)
                   I've got a Power Plant x Thai in the ground now that I've flowered and rejuved twice since last Jan..This is a great
                   hybrid..both parents came from Dutch Passion via Heaven's Stairway..It's a most visual, up high because of the
                   presence of thcV in the Power Plant Mom which was passed down to her daughter..
                   Still got some haze, too. My favorite! Will cross with Blueberry(Blaze #2) if possible..



                   TOPIC - Vic's super soil mix..
                   DATE - 12:16:18 7/18/99
                   FROM - chronic man
                   I have a few questions about the mixture. First off, I've been seeing a few photos of plants in the mixture, and they sure
                   do look happy!! I've been having problems with the mix I've been using, (Sunshine #4, GH ferts with epsom salts), and
                   I've been looking for another recipe to use. I do like to use worm castings also, and I've noticed how much better they
                   look when I use them. Is this mix complete?? I mean is there no other additives that should be added all through
                   vegging and flowering?? Also, is Maxicrop the same thing as kelp meal??
                   I am looking forward to trying this recipe. No matter how long I flush the soil, I always seem to get a slight chemical
                   taste. Also, I would like to try to reuse the soil. I get tired of throwing away all that dirt every time. I read somewhere
                   here I think that this mix can be reused. That would be cool..it gets expensive and is time consuming as well as
                   looking a little strange taking all those bags of dirt to the dump. I've run out of room to put it out in the yard, so every
                   three months I get to go to the dump, pay them, then I get to go to the local nursery to pay them for more dirt. I have
                   reused the mix that I've been using, and it worked OK, but I'm not into second guessing.
                   cHrOnIc man


                   TOPIC - More butter stuff...
                   DATE - 06:59:48 7/18/99
                   FROM - shaggy
                   I've got to definitely agree w/Trelaway about testing them out. My first real batch was all the leaves from 5 or 6 Sage
                   males I had. I'd tried it before w/o much luck (buds in butter), so I ate a great big piece to make sure. Whoops! I had a
                   very difficult time leaving the house 4 hours later because I was so obviously wasted. Flourescent red eyes, mumbling
                   to myself, non-responsive--actually pretty usual in the city heheh. I remember telling my friend it would end a good 8
                   hours later and being told I was full of crap. Well, 8 hours later we were all still out of it. I can understand how you
                   passed out. It can be a real heavy STONE--not really like getting high at all. Very narcotic.

                   I've found that butter either REALLY works or REALLY doesn't. No real middle ground. I've never had a headache and
                   only use non-mature males for some batches (and all my shake for others. Actually, I don't really care for the
                   brownies--too strong for me! My wife makes batches of brownies and fudge for a friend who get terrible migraines. They
                   really seem to help.

                   stay safe,


                   TOPIC - butter supplement...
                   DATE - 23:05:38 7/17/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   eat a test cookie before woofing a bunch down. Eating is soooo totally different from toking....

                   I've made cookies that knocked me out for hours and hours and hours only to wake up at three am on my bathroom
                   floor....still stoned.


                   TOPIC - butter
                   DATE - 23:00:10 7/17/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   I make butter all the time from fans, stalks and trimmings. Use about four oz of dry plant matter to a half-pound of
                   butter, cook as described below.

                   I've been finding that if I cook with immature plants, ie. ones not finished flowering, I'm more prone to headaches.


                   TOPIC - wacky edhassle
                   DATE - 12:15:54 7/17/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi All,
                   Ed try this email above,it has a auto-responder, so if you get a reply, I got it. Anyone looking to add a autoresponder to
                   there email, check out bigfoot.com, they have some great email tools that you can get anon and free, and it works in
                   conjuction with your present email addy.



                   TOPIC - hey Damion,
                   DATE - 11:48:34 7/17/99
                   FROM - shaggy
                   Nice to see you're still doing Ok...

                   I've never known anyone to use schwag in oil/butter and have success. It usually isn't very strong. I use the old butter
                   method for ALL my shake--take all the shake and add it to water in a big pot. Drop in a couple of sticks of butter and
                   boil it. after it reaches a boil, reduce the heat and let it simmer for 2-4 hours. Probably this is too much, but better safe
                   than sorry. When you're done, pour your mixture through a cheesecloth (found at most kitchen shops and some
                   supermarkets) and squeeze out every last bit of butter. Throw away the remnants. Stick the butter/water mix in the
                   freezer until the butter hardens up (but before the water does). Simply remove the butter and melt it down to pour into
                   your vessel.

                   If you're going to simply soak the oil/schwag, I'd pour the entire mixture into a food processor or maybe a blender after
                   you've soaked it. That might shake loose some of the THC. If you were picky you could pick the bud off the stem first
                   and use the bud/oil processed mix directly in your recipie. Personally, I wouldn't spread the 1/2 z of schwag out over 2
                   recipies. I tried this method once and it really didn't work that well. But hey, that was me...

                   sorry, i can't give you any exact recipe. Kinda like organics ;)-~.

                   btw, I don't think Vic would mind, many of us old 'Basers have regathered at www.overgrow.com Nice place, although
                   not as robust as the old 'Base. I bet it will be someday, though. Still working out the kinks. Webby's a moderator too
                   which is a plus.

                   take care my friend,


                   TOPIC - Cannabutter or Oil????
                   DATE - 11:19:42 7/17/99
                   FROM - Damion
                   hello everybody how are you? i've gotta start getting ready for this years woodstock and i was wondering what the
                   overall recommendation between the two was?

                   friend has 1/2oz of schwagg bud and intends on making 1 box of brownies and 1 box of muffins. from what he
                   understands, oil is make simply by putting shake into the oil bottle for 2 days and allowing the thc to be absorbed by
                   the oil. then filter it out and use 2x the oil called for in the recipe.
                   Is this the best way to make oil? Is butter better, and if so does anybody have a good recipe?

                   Finally, if oil is the way to go, how much does my friend need to completely absorb the THC out of 1/2oz? Should I just
                   soak it in 2x the amount of oil that the recipe calls for?

                   Thanks again, really appreciate any feedback, Damion


                   TOPIC - Budm still @ the same email address? I've
                   DATE - 04:51:45 7/17/99
                   FROM - wacky1
                   sent a few messages but no responses,you can contact me @mailcity if you,ve changed email addy.Regards
                   wacky1 aka edhassle


                   TOPIC - grapefruit
                   DATE - 10:24:29 7/16/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   hey anon, thanks for the note. My one in the mother/clone bench is green, but so are most of the plants in there. The
                   purple stemmed GF is the one just finishing up flowering. It was an old tired mom (about a year old) that I flowered out
                   to collect some seeds. I totally expected it to have come nutrient imbalances because the soil is so old. I have been
                   watering every now and then with the fox farms Big Bloom (higher P). Another strange thing is this is the first time I've
                   seen GF do remarkedly well in my garden on all accounts. Yield, aroma, looks, etc. Usually it is a dog in the yield
                   dept. Maybe it is just responding to the extra lumens. I don't think I have a P deficiency, but I think P uptake can be
                   influenced by other nutrient imbalances, so can see how it would look like a P feiciency in my situation.

                   There is bone meal in my soil mix (slow release P) so maybe that is why my plants respond to 5-1-1 fish ferts so well.


                   TOPIC - note for vic about purple stemmed grapefruit
                   DATE - 10:06:53 7/16/99
                   FROM - anon
                   hey vic... thought i'd share this with you. i added some peter's 20-20-20 to the feeding cycle of my grapefruit. the purple
                   stems have mostly disappeared and the growth rate has increased. it looks like the grapefruit need more phos. than
                   the 5-1-1 fish emulsion was providing. never had a problem with the sensi seedbank stuff on 5-1-1 for veg., so it looks
                   like the grapefruit do use extra phos. hope this helps...


                   TOPIC - Scientific Music & Plant Growth Study - long
                   DATE - 07:30:21 7/16/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   About Positive Music
                   by Don Robertson
                   The Plant Experiments

                   In 1973, a woman named Dorothy Retallack published a small book called The Sound of Music and Plants. Her book
                   detailed experiments that she had been conducting at the
                   Colorado Womanís College in Denver using the schoolís three Biotronic Control
                   Chambers. Mrs. Retallack placed plants in each chamber and speakers through which she played sounds and
                   particular styles of music. She watched the plants and recorded their
                   progress daily. She was astounded at what she discovered.

                   Her first experiment was to simply play a constant tone. In the first of the three chambers, she played a steady tone
                   continuously for eight hours. In the second, she played the tone for three hours intermittently, and in the third chamber,
                   she played no tone at all. The plants in the first chamber, with the constant tone, died within fourteen days. The plants
                   in the second chamber grew abundantly and were extremely healthy, even more so than the plants in the third
                   chamber. This was a very interesting outcome, very similar to the results that were obtained from experiments
                   performed by the Muzak Corporation in the early 1940s to determine the effect of "background music" on factory
                   workers. When music was played continuously, the workers were more fatigued and less productive, when played for
                   several hours only, several times a day, the workers were more productive, and more alert and attentive than when no
                   music was played.

                   For her next experiment, Mrs. Retallack used two chambers (and fresh plants). She placed radios in each chamber. In
                   one chamber, the radio was tuned to a local rock station, and in the other the radio played a station that featured
                   soothing "middle-of-the-road" music. Only three hours of music was played in each chamber. On the fifth day, she
                   began noticing drastic changes. In the chamber with the soothing music, the plants were growing healthily and their
                   stems were starting to bend towards the radio! In the rock chamber, half the plants had small leaves and had grown
                   gangly, while the others were stunted. After two weeks, the plants in the soothing-music chamber were uniform in size,
                   lush and green, and
                   were leaning between 15 and 20 degrees toward the radio. The plants in the rock chamber had grown extremely tall
                   and were drooping, the blooms had faded and the stems were
                   bending away from the radio. On the sixteenth day, all but a few plants in the rock chamber were in the last stages of
                   dying. In the other chamber, the plants were alive, beautiful, and growing abundantly.
                   Mrs. Retallackís next experiment was to create a tape of rock music by Jimi Hendrix, Vanilla Fudge, and Led Zeppelin.
                   Again, the plants turned away from the music. Thinking maybe it was the percussion in the rock music that was
                   causing the plants to lean away from the
                   speakers, she performed an experiment playing a song that was performed on steel
                   drums. The plants in this experiment leaned just slightly away from the speaker; however not as extremely as did the
                   plants in the rock chambers. When she performed the experiment again, this time with the same song played by
                   strings, the plants bent towards the speaker.
                   Next Mrs. Retallack tried another experiment again using the three chambers. In one chamber she played North Indian
                   classical music performed by sitar and tabla, in another she played Bach organ music, and in the third, no music was
                   played. The plants "liked" the North Indian classical music the best. In both the Bach and sitar chambers, the plants
                   leaned toward the speakers, but he plants in the Indian music chamber leaned toward the speakers the most.

                   She went on to experiment with other types of music. The plants showed no reaction at all to country and western
                   music, similarly to those in silent chambers. However, the plants "liked" the jazz that she played them. She tried an
                   experiment using rock in one chamber, and "modern" (dischordant) classical music of negative composers Arnold
                   Shönberg and Anton Webern in another. The plants in the rock chamber leaned 30 to 70 degrees away from the
                   speakers and the plants in the modern classical chamber leaned 10 to 15 degrees away.

                   I spoke with Mrs. Retallack about her experiments a few years after her book was published, and at that time I began
                   performing my own experiments with plants using a wood-frame and clear-plastic-covered structure that I had built in
                   my back yard. For one month, I played three-hours-a-day of music from Arnold Shönbergís negative opera Moses and
                   Aaron, and for another month I played three-hours-a-day of the positive music of Palestrina. The effects were clear. The
                   plants subjected to Shönberg died. The plants that listened to Palestrina flourished.

                   In these experiments, albeit basic and not fully scientific, we have the genesis of a theory of positive and negative
                   music. What is it that causes the plants to thrive or die, to grow bending toward a source of sound or away from it?

                   This article was found at http://www.dovesong.com/positive_music/plant_experiments.asp

                   Another interesting site offers a book for sale about the subject of music and plant growth:



                   TOPIC - Cooling Loop
                   DATE - 04:40:50 7/16/99
                   FROM - Soul
                   Loop_~ Yes I'm still there...love to hear from you. It's encouraging that you've managed to make water-coooling work
                   with a light mover. The other option I'm considering is using 3 water-cooled units without the light rail. My current set-up
                   is two 1000W lights moving together on a linear mover...which may be TOO much plumbing.

                   Vic_~ The heat-stressed plants are recovering now that we've had a cool week. Just as you described, if their
                   environment improves they DO get better. Sure taught me a lot about what plants look like when they can't breathe!
                   Also learned something from the thread @ overgrow.com concerning CO2 enrichment.

                   nl420_~ HOT DAMN! You really made a great forum there - I like all the "bells & whistles"...heehee. Kudos!

                   CG_~ I concur. I once saw a clone of my one of my own plants being flowered at a friend's house. Familiar with what it
                   SHOULD look like, I was surprised to see he'd manged to "Bonsai" the dammned thing - despite it being in a LARGER
                   container than I use. He was growing a 3'x2' closet with no ventilation except the open closet door...that'll do it.



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 23:32:13 7/15/99
                   FROM - greenbear
                   High Soul,our "buddy" is still free and working his ass off. I hope his bloodsuckers are better
                   then their bloodsuckers!!


                   TOPIC - george
                   DATE - 18:53:13 7/15/99
                   FROM - money launderer
                   no george, but since i am a "cargo cultist", i wash my spare change in the nutrient teas, hoping for big returns. nothing
                   definitive yet, hehehe.
                   on the pot size issue, the size i arrived at for my 1k is 2 gallons (for comparison, a 6" pot holds about 1/2 gallon), and
                   using square pots i manage to crowd 16 of them under the lamp. this can be done because the 1k can be kept 2' from
                   the plant tops and still provide adequate intensity (i have had no problems with stretching or loose buds), so i get
                   decent coverage. btw, blazer mis-attributed that quote below to oldtimer1, it was actually me that said that, hehe! no
                   worries blazz old buddy ;-)

                   greenbear duid, good to see you! hope you're having an "egg-cellent" summer :-) the gws X grapefruit sounds like it has
                   great potential ("grape white shark", mmm), and the rom x, too. i'm still trying to make room in my grow for some seed
                   starts with the mixed bag you gave me. someday! give my best to our crazy friend! btw, what did you DO to that cow,
                   to make her MOO like dat?! ;-)


                   TOPIC - http://www.earthpulse.com/science/songs.html
                   DATE - 18:25:24 7/15/99
                   FROM - C.G.



                   TOPIC - Modern Mozart? More info ...
                   DATE - 18:20:48 7/15/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   This is one Very interesting article posted at the url shown below. It seems to go Waaay beyond mearly playing
                   classical tunes. These dudes are taking it to the outer edges of physical chemistry and organic physics. I'll look for
                   more, but wanted to post this before it got lost.



                   TOPIC - Oops! Mozart might not be the ticket
                   DATE - 14:39:40 7/15/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   Well, there we go spouting off again. The brief searches we ran online didn't anything about the Mozart Effect and it's
                   effect on plants. There were plenty of sites mentioning it in connection with human health and learning ability and such,
                   but nothing on plants. I'll keep looking.

                   So, I went back to the source and asked the person who ran the mung-bean tests. It was revealed that the growth
                   patterns mentioned in my earlier post were misleading since the plants that were closest to the speakers showed the
                   biggest effects, and the "scientist" only bothered to graph the most extreme examples.

                   So, there might be some positive effect to playing music for the plants, but it might take substantial volume to make a
                   difference. Could be a hassle.

                   The next avenue to search will be what key the music should be in. The key of G supposedly has a positive effect. I'll
                   check it out.

                   Thanks for the feedback on pot size, Blaze,I'll pass it along. Skinman, thanks for the lead on "natural" CD's.

                   Heck, since we're on an esoteric sort of trip, here's a weird one: Have any of you, or folks you know of, ever tried to
                   appease the spirits by burning paper money in the herb patch? Just curious.


                   TOPIC - Oops! Mozart might not be the ticke.t
                   DATE - 14:39:29 7/15/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   Well, there we go spouting off again. The brief searches we ran online didn't anything about the Mozart Effect and it's
                   effect on plants. There were plenty of sites mentioning it in connection with human health and learning ability and such,
                   but nothing on plants. I'll keep looking.

                   So, I went back to the source and asked the person who ran the mung-bean tests. It was revealed that the growth
                   patterns mentioned in my earlier post were misleading since the plants that were closest to the speakers showed the
                   biggest effects, and the "scientist" only bothered to graph the most extreme examples.

                   So, there might be some positive effect to playing music for the plants, but it might take substantial volume to make a
                   difference. Could be a hassle.

                   The next avenue to search will be what key the music should be in. The key of G supposedly has a positive effect. I'll
                   check it out.

                   Thanks for the feedback on pot size, Blaze,I'll pass it along. Skinman, thanks for the lead on "natural" CD's.

                   Heck, since we're on an esoteric sort of trip, here's a weird one: Have any of you, or folks you know of, ever tried to
                   appease the spirits by burning paper money in the herb patch? Just curious.


                   TOPIC - Environmental Sounds
                   DATE - 11:26:07 7/15/99
                   FROM - Skinman
                   Curious George - I've always loved the sound of a rainstorm and use "Nature" disks in my bedside cd/clock/radio for
                   just such restful endeavors. The Nature Company put out a series in 1988-89 which I think are the best for your sound
                   experiments. They are dolby so they have good directional sound and are released through BMI music under Wild
                   Sancuary Music heading. "Distant Thunder" and "Tropical Jungle" from Bernie Krause are my favorites and seem to be
                   just the ticket for your test. If you are interested try writing the following address:

                   The Nature Company
                   P.O. Box 2310
                   Berkeley CA 94702

                   CD #s
                   Distant Thunder: NC-227728
                   Tropical Jungle: NC-266486

                   I Let my brother Sub borrow them for a while but there was never a control group so we really don't know if that helped,
                   sounds interesting though. Skinman out, but never down!


                   TOPIC - CuriousG
                   DATE - 09:59:06 7/15/99
                   FROM - Blazer
                   Man that farmer You met is all wet! The differences I've found from starting w/ 6" baskets up to the 12" self watering
                   pots, yield went from grams to ounces. I figure these pots hold a good 2 gallons of pellets and a lil extra nutes in the
                   bottom for a modified nft style grow via drip lines running 24/7. I also keep less than 10 plants under a 1k at anytime, 8
                   is ideal IMO @ about 2.5 to 3 foot per plant in hieght. I think Ot1 said it best, "Bigger roots equal bigger buds...period.".
                   I share that belief too. When trying to get more than 8-10 plants under that 1K, I found skinnier plants. Dropped to 8
                   and topped at the 4th node, I'm getting schrubs now w/ the outter tips almost equaling the main kola(s) from the
                   pinching off. Better yield by far in My situation anyhow, BUT like i always say...So many ways to accomplish damn
                   near the same thing. I don't see any 1 way being the total package. I started off w/ a Emily's Garden(water culture) that
                   held 5 gallons of nute and 6 plants! LOL After trying SEVERAL different methods, I've found My lil groove I think. You
                   get the point I'm sure, whatever feels good;)


                   TOPIC - The Mozart Effect
                   DATE - 09:23:18 7/15/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   Here are the bare-bones of "The Mozart Effect".

                   If you take three groups of mung beans ( for instance ) and plant each group in a seperate container, and treat them all
                   to the same enviormental conditions, except exposure to an hour per day or more of music, large differences in size
                   and vigor will be observed depending on what kind of music is being played for each group of plants.

                   If one group is the control, given no music, and another is exposed to hard rock or heavy metal, and the last is exposed
                   to Mozart, the classically trained mung beans will be markedly larger than both the control and the hard rock beans.

                   ( A certain slacker HS student we know managed to slip by the annual "science project" requirement by running that
                   same experiment for three years in a row, and always got the same results. The Mozart sprouts grew aprox. 25%
                   larger than the controls, and 50% bigger than the hard rock sprouts. )

                   I suspect that one thing missing from indoor grows is the sound of the wind, the birds, and the insects. Playing some
                   nice, laid-back classical music for the plants probably substitutes for the lack of other input on those wavelengths.
                   Maybe it's related to the same mechanism that triggered the "talk to your plants" bit from years ago? Who knows?

                   At any rate, it would be interesting to see someone give it a shot. I'd be inclined to try two types of sound: one would
                   be light classical or Mozart, and the other would be an "Enviormental" tape or CD, those things with the sounds of wind
                   and birds and stuff. If good records have been kept of a stable grow, improvements could be accurately measured.

                   It's probably time to run a Search Engine query on the subject of the Mozart Effect. I'll do that and report back if any
                   significant details are available.

                   Upon further reflection, I suspect that the low yielding indoor hobby grow I saw was suffering from a lack of sufficient
                   fresh air circulation and replenishment. It was in a fairly large back room, with a fan for cooling, but there were no vents
                   to the outside, just a door leading to the rest of the building. Any concurring opinions?


                   TOPIC - split root system
                   DATE - 09:22:32 7/15/99
                   FROM - sb
                   Loop da
                   I'm very interested in the potential of the split root system. A plastic vertical divider glued into a pot with a small slit in
                   the middle/top 1.5" x .5" would allow a clone to be placed between the two sides(centered) allowing roots to grow to
                   each side

                   On the other front, your idea of the perlite surround is interesting as well....gonna try it?Do you think that the timing of
                   the partion removal would be important?

                   I also like the straw idea, but with a twist.Use larger diameter sticks (pieces of broomstick possibly) placed in the pot
                   when planting .After the initial watering the sticks could be removed and the holes filled with perlite.



                   TOPIC - If there's a will....
                   DATE - 08:54:20 7/15/99
                   FROM - Loop
                   Soul- I LOVE the toys. Of course my lights move. I use a light rail 3 linear mover that moves the lamps about 16". I
                   wouldn't say it's a snap but as long as you secure the hoses in front of the fittings (so there is no stress directly on the
                   joint) its not a problem (at least it hasn't been yet). I did make my own hood because I also have a 400w MH nose to
                   nose with the water-cooled 1K and my set-up is stadium like so my reflectors looks upside down like a V instead of a
                   ^. Because of my restricted height situation, I changed the fittings to a 90 degree elbow instead of straight up.
                   Language is not really my bag (I'm a visual guy) but I do have some photo's I could send you that would make it all
                   clear. A picture worth about 20,000 of my words. Are you still at England?


                   TOPIC - Very Interesting...
                   DATE - 04:31:14 7/15/99
                   FROM - Soul
                   Loop_~ Thanks for providing all the insight on water-cooled lights. If not for my insisting on MOVING my lamps over the
                   plants, they sound excellent for me. I have a water source and sink near the flowering room that would make cooling a
                   snap too (dammit).

                   Greenbear_~ Nice seeing you here too! Is our buddy OK? Out of 75 seedlings you should find something indicative of
                   the best the cross is capable of, IMO.

                   CG_~ Larger containers definitely increase the yield PER PLANT. I was growing two distinct strains in 6" pots under a
                   1k indoors & was averaging .75 dry oz/plant. I now use 10" pots and my average plants are 2 ounces dry. They're more
                   satisfying too, because the colas are "impressive" sized. Of course one can't fit the same number of individuals in the
                   same space using larger containers, so there's a trade-off. Yield per LAMP is what I go by - It's the REAL bottom-line
                   in a commercial grow anyway, right? With a 2k HPS&MH set-up on a linear track, I reliably yield over 2lbs per harvest.
                   There are many things I could do to maximize yield a bit more, but I'm satisfied both financially & esthetically by the
                   method I use...it's not too much work.

                   OK, I'll bite...what's the Mozart effect?


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 22:50:39 7/14/99
                   FROM - loop da loop
                   With all this talk of hot grow rooms I thought I give a quick (or not so quick)water-cooled update.

                   Re: the cost of water-cooled lighting. I was able to reduce flow as low as 0.4 litres per minute for 2 1000 w bulbs with
                   the resulting out water temp @ 105F. Since I need maximum cooling (it is friggin hot here) I increased flow to 0.8 LPM
                   and water is now 85F therefore my lights are now 85F. With the cost of water in these parts (southern Ontario) it works
                   out to be about $8 for both lights per month with the high flow. Considerably cheaper than AC. My lights on temps
                   settle between 85- 90 when its really hot (max has been 91.4F at plant tops). Donít forget my room is in an attic on the
                   top floor of a tar roof apartment. Iíve got almost 3k light in a 330 cubic foot box. A few other tricks help with this. I also
                   have massive (for my size room) air movement using a 500cfm exhaust and 300 cfm intake. My res is located outside
                   the box and is cooled to 72F which is where my intake fans are located. This helps cool the in-air as it takes advantage
                   of the res evaporation. Also I use a high-pressure pump for the aero that creates a super fine mist that raises up
                   through the grow rocks. This acts like a cheap (an unplanned)fogger. My crop has never looked better and I plan to
                   hook up my co2 next week. Iím a believer.

                   Vic-I had some clones with pre-flowers that accidentally were pollinated. The clones where always on 16 hour days and
                   although they started to form real (little) buds, they went back into veg fairly quickly. The pollinated pre-flowers formed
                   seeds that fully matured while continuing to grow.
                   Also, how did that Chemo work out for you?

                   Soul-long time no yak. Ya, I love the toys. The organic thing was working real well for me but after I set up an auto
                   watering system there wasnít much to do. Got kind of bored and went full out aero. Defiantly keeps me on my toes
                   now. My place looks like a refinery with all the plumbing. Almost too much funÖ.

                   To whoever is responsible for the new sight (overgrow.com) take a bow. Well done.

                   CG- When doing the organic thing I had plants that yielded over 2 oz grown in 8-9 inch pots. OT1 grows in about the
                   same size container and has huge plants AND tight spacing. I even had a plant that was about 35 grams grown in a 4î
                   rockwool cube. Part of it depends if you treat it like dirt or like manually feed hydro and how much organic matter your
                   using. Some strains do need a lot of root space though. Kushís seem to and the romberry seems like a root pig so far.
                   Vic said his yield sucked when he went to smaller containers so I guess it really depends on strain and growing style.
                   Figuring it out is part of the art. Your friends grow sound OK (but not great) for a 400w set up but does suck for a 1k.
                   Guess heís not an artist ;-)

                   Re: splitting the roots. Dr Cooper (the NFT dude) has a hydro system (called the Ariel) that splits the root system into
                   two parts. He feeds each side at a different time so there is always ½ the roots in air. He also feeds one side with a
                   low level of nutrient solution and the other side with a very high level (up to 3000 ppm). Claims it works great. Hard to
                   say not knowín.



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 22:15:22 7/14/99
                   FROM - greenbear
                   thats MOON,not Bessie the cow!!!!LOL...


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 22:08:08 7/14/99
                   FROM - greenbear
                   High all! Still kickin'! Hey Vic you played with Grapefruitbefore. I crossed a GreatWhiteSharkmale
                   with a Grapefruit clone to help the GWS with taste (its a Superskunk x WhiteWiddow and its a
                   great trichome producer,the biggest I've ever seen !BUT the taste and smell leave a lot of room
                   for improvement).I got about 75 eggs. Will this number be big enough to find a few
                   great(hopefully!) moms? I also crossed the GWS with Romberry f2s and a JackHerer.
                   Hello Soul!! Great to see ya !!!! Hope all is supercalafragalistic! ( and expealadosious!!!)
                   By the way I got to sample A-13,my host called the high "disturbing" !! All I can say is WOW!!!
                   If A-11 is even more so......TO THE MOO


                   TOPIC - Thanks!
                   DATE - 21:22:37 7/14/99
                   FROM - Strider
                   HEY..! All....... OT 1........ Thanx ! We will see if it works. I am about as naive on the puter as I am on growing
                   inside.The plus side is, I'm learning all the time and enjoying it. In regards to your co2 post. thinking back to last
                   winter, fan run times varied wiith the outside temp,but were frequent enough to Keep things cooking. At this point in my
                   grow my zeal is to grow,grow grow. Only way to really get a handle on what the needs of my grow/room/plants are and
                   adjust/change things to meet them. Growing for personal. Idon't have to grow in summer. but damn it. I want to! I think I
                   hear that old familar tune.$Ching!$Ching! Ro and softeners...... softened water has a high sodium content. Seems like I
                   remember long term use may lock up some nutes/minerals. RO's....don't get me wrong.I'm not a fanatic. but I do
                   believe we should all have a sense of stewarship. RO's, at least the ones I'm familar with, waste a lot of water among
                   other things. Good clean drinking water is a justification. But plants? Distilled would be a better choice IMHO. Now!
                   what to do with these 4 clones that made it.Veg them under low watt floro's till fall,about 2 mo. for mothers?


                   TOPIC - Is size all that counts?
                   DATE - 19:43:30 7/14/99
                   FROM - Cutious George
                   As sung by Maria Muldar, "It's Not The Meat, It's The Motion". Is the Process as important as the size of the yield? Is
                   the act of growing, the routine and discipline ( or lack thereof ) as important as the result? How does it affect the grow?
                   Just curious ...

                   One thing that's recently come to mind is size of container vs size of yield paradox. Saw a grow recently, the first
                   indoor one I've seen in a few years, and was astonished by the small size of the containers, ( about 6 in.), and the
                   small diameter of the buds. They were sticky as hell, smelled fine, and did what was expected when sampled, but they
                   just didn't look substantial. There were 18 of them under one 1K MH and yielded less than 1/2 oz. per plant. When
                   asked about using some larger containers, the farmer indicated that he hadn't seen an appreciable difference in yield
                   with larger pots, and fewer plants fit under the light. What gives here?

                   Given a 1 light situation, probably the most common size of grow, where do the graphs of container size vs yield vs sq.
                   feet of lighted area all converge? Do you have to go to 1 or 2 gallon or even larger sizes before it makes a significant

                   The grow in question was a sort of SOG, all from rock-wool clones that were put directly into a flowering time cycle as
                   soon as they were transplanted into soil. The strain was supposedly "Big Bud", but as I said, they sure didn't look very

                   If it takes Big containers and Lots of lights and Loads of power and everything else to get substantial indoor yields,
                   maybe outdoor growing, with all of it's problems, might be better after all.

                   Have any of you folks ever attempted to make use of "The Mozart Effect" during an indoor grow? I suspect that it would
                   be quite beneficial to make use of that principle, and it would be easy as pie.

                   Later ...



                   TOPIC - Yak Yak Yak (fun, fun, fun)
                   DATE - 15:26:00 7/14/99
                   FROM - Soul
                   Vic_~ I see yours and our esteemed colleague Webby's point! ;) The shorter days of Spring may allow the plants to be
                   insensitive to shorter days for the first couple of weeks, but not more than a month. I know they'll flower - I've flowered
                   4-week old plants & they don't even hesitate. I agree that it's a GREAT way to test for hermie tendancies. I know that
                   you're only doing it to save space - I've juggled plants too, but in the other direction.

                   Your comments on forced intakes is right on. I have tried with & without using inlet fans & it's MUCH better to have
                   them...even compared to a big passive vent.

                   Ju_ce71_~ The plants are so small when you root under 12/12 and go immediately to flower that 12 clones fit in a
                   "flowerbox" type of container 3'long. There once was a guy growing a perpetual harvest with that technique...harvested
                   a flowerbox every week with each clone yielding 10 grams. With the right strain, I guess that could work...but I've never
                   seen a good candidate.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 14:54:40 7/14/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Cowboy pure water should be ph 7! ph pens can't read very pure water properly, I suspect you have pure water at ph 7
                   because at ph 5.6 you would be getting ppm readings on your cf meter.


                   TOPIC - ju_ce
                   DATE - 14:12:07 7/14/99
                   FROM - Cowboy
                   dude,the brand name is AMPAC wich i believe stands for american pacific enterprises.go to ebay.com and type in
                   reverse osmosis and see what it lists for you.as far as the 5.7 ph thing...i guess someone suggested it be lowered a bit
                   and the garden seemed to like it ,so it got left there.and whenever i calibrate the ph pen it seems to be reading .2 or .3
                   lower than the calibration fluid so i guess it all balances itself out to some point a little above or a little below 6.0 .are
                   you measuring PH with a electronic pen or with a kit were you add a few drops to the solution and check color.the
                   color check kits have never worked to well for my friend.it seemed to always show ph at about 7.0......any one know of
                   a better quality PH pen than a hanna for around the same $,as they seem to be a little fickle on occasion.


                   TOPIC - Vic/Soul
                   DATE - 12:25:58 7/14/99
                   FROM - webfish
                   Actually on the seed thing ,,if you think about it when do seeds naturaly germ?Early spring ,April and May the light
                   hours are not that different from fall hours (about 14 per day)so if you germ in low hours and increase it shouldent effect
                   the plants negativly at all... Besides were talking about a weed here he he he ....


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 10:17:18 7/14/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   ju_ce71 - I think you misunderstood my reasoning behind my approach. No fault of yours, my reasons are spread out
                   over a few posts, haha. Gotta remeber that there is more happening in my garden than just the seedlings, so I'm not
                   really trying to speed the developement of the seedlings by starting them in the 12/12. Its just that the flower room and
                   the balcony are the only areas available, and balcony isn't an option for this many seedlings, haha. By using free space
                   in flower room, the seedlings will be further along when ready to flip flower room back to veg room, than waiting for room
                   to be clear before starting the seeds. That's all.

                   I have always preferred larger plants to smaller ones (to keep numbers down), so I would not be interested in rooting
                   clones under 12/12. But that is a personal thing :) I've heard it's a good technique for those SOG and Scrog growers
                   growing sativas.


                   TOPIC - vic, soul seedling push and stuff
                   DATE - 08:20:01 7/14/99
                   FROM - ju_ce71
                   greetings, vic while you would have to go through a veg
                   cycle sooner or later with seedlings to reach flowering
                   maturity , would it be make sense to root clones under 12/12
                   and skip the veg cycle total


                   TOPIC - oldtime1, cowboy + RO couple?
                   DATE - 08:07:50 7/14/99
                   FROM - ju_ce71
                   greetings, yeah guys i'm not sure what the problem is with
                   the pH.?is it possible that the water company addss
                   something that can't be filtered out of the water. The
                   supermarkets RO don't lower the pH either so I don't think
                   it's just my unit. Cowboy thats a great deal for a 36gpd RO
                   machine can you give me brand name.
                   I currently use ebb&flow, with grow rocks,beans where
                   started in rockwool that wasn't presoaked to reduce pH. This
                   hasn't been a problem so far. Right now I target the pH. at
                   6.0, however I see lots of post where the target is 5.8-5.7
                   like you mentioned cowboy.
                   ?should I lower my pH. to this lower target range or is 6.0
                   close enough.
                   I have several book and posting that suggest a water only
                   flush just before taking cuttings.
                   ?wouldn't this effect growth just before you start
                   flowering cycle
                   ?how may days of for this flush period.


                   TOPIC - weird stuff
                   DATE - 08:02:09 7/14/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   haha, yeah Soul, it's weird, but hell, I'm known for pushing the envelope on the RULES, haha. But in reality, I don't
                   think it is too unnatural. Probably, with the more sativa a strain has, the less unatural it is. Seeds planted in early
                   spring are often starting under flowering conditions but by the time they get bigger the daylength has lengthened
                   enough to not effect them. I think this is what the spring bud crops are about? I figure worse case scenario is that I
                   delay going back to 18/6 for too long (waiting for seed crop to mature) and trigger a hermie gene or two. The only
                   seedlings in there are the C99 so I'm not too worried. And the crop is for breeding, so any weaknesses I can expose is
                   a good thing, IMHO. Anyway, by the time the closet is ready for 18/6 again, my seedlings will already be in their final 2
                   gal homes thus saving me about 5-6 weeks of veg (down) time.

                   I was actually suprised that you are the first to pass comment on this, that was my third time bringing the technique
                   up, second time here. I guess I was being too low key about it, hehe.

                   Already making notes on the ones vulnerable to powdery mildew, I hope a couple males come through clean. My
                   original blueberries are still the only strain I have that is powdery mildew resistant. Both of the other blueberry versions I
                   have in clone form get nailed by the mildew.

                   One the heat/ventilation topic, I've been there and feel for you guys. Location was top floor with tar/gravel roof, duhh.
                   Soul, I know exactly what you are talking about with respect to soft stems and bud quality. I did find that a couple extra
                   weeks of flowering under lower temps provided me with a product that was at least useable. Also I found that plant
                   plant's use of water severly dropped off and I got worried about root rot, so I used H2O2 in the water. About 10% still
                   died. What was interesting was that the plants furthest from lights suffered the worse.

                   I had airflow coming out of my ying yang. Intake pressure was most important to me, passive air intake just didn't cut
                   it. During heat of summer I finally settled on an airconditioner for each 3 light suncircle. Exhaust was 1400cfm variable
                   speed blower, and intake was 1200cfm. That intake had power!! with it I didn't reall need any oscilating fans, haha. It
                   had no drag or push resistance to deal with, just had to move air through a wall. Exhaust had to push air 20 feet max in
                   a 10" duct.

                   Many growers over estimate the effectiveness of their fans/blowers at pushing/pulling air long distances in small tubing
                   like the 4" and 6" types. Like the dayton can pull a tremendous amount of air volume, but add some resistance or ask
                   it to push air and it peters right out. And they don't think enough about the intake volume either. I can't stress enough
                   how important the intake volume is at controlling temps, and it's cheaper to operate than an airconditioner. sorry I can't
                   offer specific engineering guidlines, I just tend to go with what feels right which often involves some hit and miss, right


                   TOPIC - You do WHAT?
                   DATE - 04:45:38 7/14/99
                   FROM - Soul
                   Vic_~ Damn...I didn't think you'd say YES! That's pretty weird. A seedling starting out life under 12/12 is VERY
                   unnatural. Kinda like if a seed fell from a mature, seeded plant and hit the ground and germinated in Autumn. I can't
                   help thinking it must be damned confusing for them...but if you say it works.

                   Well I guess you're about 7 years younger than me (I'm 40). I believe Rubik's Cube came out in 1980. I can still solve it!
                   Originally, I trained myself to be able to do it STONED, so I'd never forget.

                   SB_~ You're so nice, thanks. Your mention of the hash oil reminds me - I've been harvesting seeds lately (in big Q's). I
                   rub the heavily-seeded buds between my fingers 'til they're broken down into shake, then separate all the mature seeds
                   from the trash (the leftover bud material is great for rolling joints). A major "fringe benefit" is rolling hash balls from the
                   residues on my fingers! They look like Nepalese Temple Balls. It's KILLER. Buds from one 2.5-foot-tall plant makes a
                   hash ball about the size of a standard marble, just under an ounce of shake and about 500 beans.

                   Curious George_~ Pleased to make YOUR aquaintance - I've been lurking for months watching the show! I like your
                   style...guess there's one (or more ;) in every crowd. LOL!
                   Give 'em hell!

                   Oldtimer1_~ Blow me down! That's a great yield from a single plant in such tight conditions! Good show mate. I have a
                   couple of C99 which I am keeping as mums. One's extremely resinous with a "scary" high (I wrote you about it) - the
                   other is a bigger yielding plant but also killer smoke. I can't wait to get some decent growing conditions established to
                   really see their true potential, but the heat during flowering weeks 4&5 really took the wind out the current crop's sails.
                   I'm going to invest more in climate control over the next few months...your comments on air exchange really helped -


                   TOPIC - ju_ce
                   DATE - 02:56:57 7/14/99
                   FROM - Cowboy
                   my 5 stage 36 gpd R O under the sink filter system cost 225 bucks
                   it takes the ph from 7.8 to 5.8 or 5.7,wich is where my friends garden likes the ph anyway.i bought it at e bay.it takes
                   ppms to basically nothing.
                   but i did see similar units at loews(home depot type stores)


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 02:03:50 7/14/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   ju_ce71 Strange the ph still being high, my Ro system has a pre activated carbon / silver filter and a mixed bed cation
                   resin post filter. The output water is ph 7 and conductivity 0.00 uS. All Ro units here in the uk seem to come with filters
                   as well as the membrane and if it was to be used for drinking an additional carbon post filter would be added.


                   TOPIC - Wacky1 RO
                   DATE - 22:01:51 7/13/99
                   FROM - ju_ce71
                   Greetings Wacky, I hope you are enjoying good health and
                   peace of mind. Wacky you ask a question which as also been
                   raised at other boards. I have an RO system that does a
                   great job at reducing the ppm from 240ppm to 10ppm but it
                   does nothing to reduce the ph which is 8.0-8.5. The RO at
                   the local supermarkets reduce ppm, but also don't do a thing
                   about the high pH. Some people report however that there
                   RO's do reduce pH, and that Brita and Pur filters also
                   reduce pH. In summary my RO does not reduce pH.? if anybody
                   good tell me how a brita or pur filter could reduce pH i
                   would love t


                   TOPIC - sorry
                   DATE - 21:01:05 7/13/99
                   FROM - pi
                   i currently use (1)vaporizer body in my 2500 sgft room and it increased my nomimal room humidity from 60% to 70%. i
                   believe i would see approximately a 10% rise for each unit i add sooo if i wanted a target of 90% humidity i would need
                   3 units.

                   even if you only need one unit you can still switch to a larger reservoir and float assembly in order go longer between


                   TOPIC - humidifier suggestion
                   DATE - 20:48:23 7/13/99
                   FROM - pi
                   the cool mist type humidifiers and the ultrasonic humidifiers are designed for about 60% humidity. i tried one in my
                   grow and it helped but it never got much more than 60% and i was having to refill the thing every day.

                   i suppose they would get the humidity into the 80% range if you bought enuf of them. the cost of multiple units and the
                   constant filling would drive me NUTS.....

                   for about $25 you make a humidifier with a large resevoir that will kick assssssss.

                   -(1) large reseroir say 20 gal............ $7
                   -(3) vix vpaorizers 1 gal size for about.. $18
                   -(1) sheet misc styrofoam to suit......... $1

                   1.) fill up one of the vaporizers to full and mark the high water mark on the vaporizer body
                   2.) mark all three vaporizer bodies high water mark.
                   3.) take your piece of styrofoam and cut 3 holes the same diameter as your vaporizer body.
                   4.) assembly all 3 vaporizers into the float
                   5.) fill reseroir with water and add a little chlorine bleach to prevent beasties
                   5.) place float assy in water and adjust position of float on vaporizer bodies so that the 3 high water marks are just
                   above the water line.

                   note that the reservoir size, the # of vaporizer bodies you need and the size of stryofoam is all dependant on your own
                   room size, brand of components etc.


                   TOPIC - rubick's cube
                   DATE - 20:22:03 7/13/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Hey I remember those things. Due to our age difference, I was solving it in grade 8, haha. I was one of those kids who
                   survived one of the toughest schools in BC by being friends with a jock who needed help making the grade, if you know
                   what I mean ;-)


                   TOPIC - Soul Vegging
                   DATE - 19:18:41 7/13/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Soul - you got it, I often start seedlings in the flower room if that is what logistics dictate. I found it doesn't effect them
                   negatively as long as I can flip them back to veg before they mature too far. Yes it tends to slow down the veg growing,
                   but if that is the only space available, what the hell. Still get a jump on things rather than waiting for the flower crop to
                   finish. Hence my original question about getting seeds to mature in the seed crop. I think I only have a week left before
                   I will have to flip the seedlings back to veg. But some of the seed crop won't be ready yet. I think the romulans have
                   another three to go. Was just curious if anyone had much experience trying to mature seeds while under a veg light
                   cycle. Pollination is already complete. Maybe if I start slowly shortening the dark period, I can buy an extra week. I
                   topped the three earliest C99 males last night to slow them down. The triploid is a male, btw.


                   TOPIC - Root Air - Volume II - Long Post
                   DATE - 18:23:28 7/13/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   KQ - CapChron - soul - sb & Vic:

                   The straws could work, let us know if you try it ... and the pull out plastic partition with a transplant also makes some

                   The humidity bit couldn't hurt if the temp. can be kept under control. There are several inexpensive electric humidifiers
                   available at discount stores that can really pump out the fog. They can go full tilt for over a day before needing a refill.

                   The coiled plastic tubing is another good idea. Though the air holes might get clogged, the air pressure might help keep
                   them open.
                   Who knows? Well worth a try.

                   I've been working on this "Air to the Roots" thing for the last few days. My brain has been a bubbling cauldron of brilliant
                   ideas, astonsihing insights, and earth-shaking flashes of cosmic enlightenment.

                   Unfortunately, when the Fickle Finger of Fate came down from the clouds over Mt. Olympus and revealed the solution
                   to the air-root question floating in a bottle of Swinkles Beer, it was not accompanied by a set of winning Lottery

                   At any rate, here is the methodology :

                   We'll assume that the soil mix is fairly light to begin with, something along the lines of Vic's Mix. This should have
                   enough air and loosness to support good root growth for at least several weeks before it begins to get compacted.
                   About the time the roots hit the container wall, the soil in the rest of the container is holding less and less air due to
                   compacting and as the root ball fills-in, some air starts to enter from the sides of the container.

                   So, how do we take advantage of the roots behavior? Well, for one thing, we can artificially enlarge the container, at
                   least from the plant's perspective. The trick is to find accordian-folded plastic sheeting. The folds of the plastic add up
                   to a much larger surface area for the roots to grow over and around. Like having container with 40% larger diameter.

                   The size of the folds in the plastic, and the softness of the sheeting, would determine whether it could be bent around a
                   circular container. Three pieces should be used, overlapped at the edges, so they can be easily removed without
                   harming the plant. On a square container, four pieces are used.

                   OK, that much should get us to the point of having greater root mass at the time when the plant is expected to be at
                   it's best, right in the middle of budding-up.

                   What's next? Dig it: If the folds in the plastic are 1/4 inch or more wide, and the inside edge is filled with a mat of roots,
                   the space Between the Outside of the plastic accordian and the Inside of the container is where the action is. Take a
                   piece of paper and fashion a small funnel, pour pearlite pellets down and fill up each of the little triangular shafts around
                   the plant, and then pull out the plastic sheet. This should leave this very large mass of roots surrounded by the most
                   airy of growing mediums. The air advantage of hydro seem to be available to soil grown herb at the very time that the
                   plant needs it the most.

                   This should work in even the smallest containers, and actually might be better in square rather than round ones.

                   If plastic sheeting can't be found, cheap folding window blinds could be cut-up, and should have good durability.

                   This method is low-tech, requires no pump or other electric aparatus, and if combined with aerated water feedings,
                   could mark a major improvement in the art and science of home growing.

                   Whew ... pass the joint!



                   TOPIC - KQ and all this damn hash oil.HAHAHA
                   DATE - 16:00:48 7/13/99
                   FROM - sb
                   Seems "someone" better left unmentioned posted a super simple hash-oil extraction method and I've been pretty
                   stoned since..LOL
                   So were you referrring to the possibility of having the bulk of the root sys travel between two distinct and therefore
                   independantly controllable zones as opposed to a simple split system (with a divider)?
                   Let me know the parameters of your test and I'll try to duplicate them here, although in small numbers

                   I really enjoyed the apollo and genius.Very nice indeed



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 15:38:00 7/13/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Soul sorry i misread your post C99 number 7 is a definite keeper.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 15:34:05 7/13/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Soul it produced 52.5 g of tight bud at 72 days on 12 hrs, at two plants per sq ft that is pretty dam good. Keeper it
                   depends on a couple of months curing, but I tend to like oddities if you get what I mean.


                   TOPIC - Old Friends
                   DATE - 12:44:32 7/13/99
                   FROM - Soul
                   OT1_~ Thanks for the A/C info...I'm really seing nasty effects from low CO2 and high temps in this new place durring
                   summer. I may have to buy a CO2 generator, dehumidifier and A/C in order to handle all the seasons here.

                   Thanks also for reminding me about that anonmolous P75/Bro. No, I've never seen one like that! How did it end up? Did
                   you like any well enough to keep?

                   Rubik's Cube was the most powerful influence on my becoming an engineer - when I figured that thing out @ 20 yrs
                   old, I decided I should go to college...up 'til then I wasn't interested in higher education. Thank you Mr.Rubik!

                   Strider_~ Thanks...I try to be consise & clear. Glad someone appreciates it.

                   Fatboy_~ Only about 500 A13 seeds were created, thinking that C99 was the REAL focus, and they sold out in a
                   month or two. Hardly a week passes since then that someone doesn't ask for more. There's a new Apollo, which will be
                   available from HS in a week or so.

                   Loop_~ Nice to cya, I missed ya dude! You seem to have some pretty cool toys.

                   Blazer_~ Just joshin' - as you KNOW! I wonder if you're aware of Lance Armstrong? He's doing y'all (Texans) proud!

                   KQ_~ High old buddy! You're quite right, the rods won't work if you insist on perforations (I can just picture you
                   "operating" on the straws with a pin). I was thinking of them as "space-holders" to be removed once the roots had been
                   fully established, leaving air channels behind. BTW, you have too much free time on your hands if you can think of
                   goofy shit like that...LOL! ;-)_~

                   Vic_~ You're confusing me. Are you smoking your own shit again?

                   First you posted:
                   "Incidently, the C99 seedlings are also in the flower room due to space limitations, and bad weather outside. They are
                   mostly between 7 and eight sets of leaves, and still no preflowers with the exception of one male and one female. They
                   are now at the stage where they have slowed upward growth and are filling out."

                   Then you posted:
                   "Anyway, I have no desire to flower the C99 for another month or so, I kinda want to get to know them first and allow
                   them to become quite mature. Kinda walking a fine line here trying to maximize seed developement while keepng C99
                   in veg mode."

                   VIC! Which is it? You're NOT vegging them in your flowering room, are you? Heehee!


                   TOPIC - strawberry blonde
                   DATE - 09:29:31 7/13/99
                   FROM - flwr smkr
                   anyone know what was crossed with what to create this,or at least what is the rumor.tia


                   TOPIC - follow up on lights for Nugget
                   DATE - 07:42:50 7/13/99
                   FROM - BushyOlderGrower
                   The 4, 600watt hps lights will make you a kick ass flowering room. 600 hps are very efficient and bright without
                   concentrating too much in one place (light or heat). They last a longer time than MH and are more efficient than MH
                   except for in the gro stage and I like some MH in flowering room for plants just moved there to go under first. The veg
                   growth is best and healthiest under MH. The leaves are large and dark green, while under just sodium light alone for veg
                   is not entirely complete as it needs more blue spectrum for maximum leaf growth. You are growing under sodium, try
                   adding florescent light to it for some blue in growth but a 400 MH would work for you too.
                   It sounds like your plants will need to be about 11/2 ft tall before they will be tall enough for your flower room, they will
                   reach up until close enough then will get excellent crop I bet. Good Harvest to you!!


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 01:05:05 7/13/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Strider air exchange plays a bigger part in good yield than most people think! I have a room 1625 cu ft within that room
                   is my grow area an 8 x 4 bed x 10 ft high 320 cu ft. My input fan is 1200 cu ft a min at low level in the main room, the
                   extract 1680 cu ft a min at high level in the grow area making a complete air change every 2 min taking into account
                   the room resistance and the thickness of the walls and ducting length. The co2 level stays the same as the input air.

                   Growth slows exponentially to a stop as co2 levels drop, co2 levels drop to near zero in my room in under 30 min so
                   were it just the grow area the co2 would be gone in 6 / 7 mins. So your plants will not be using any of the light you are
                   giving them or growing for 25 min or 1 hr of the fan off time. You will tend to get very light yields and skimpy loose buds.
                   It sounds like it would be better if you only grow indoors in the cooler months.

                   If your house has full aircon matters could be improved by drawing your input from the inside air as co2 levels can be
                   quite elevated where people are breathing, it would be cool, the lighting could be run at night when people are sleeping.

                   Hope this helps a bit. Ot1

                   write in you wp and drag drop it!


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 23:19:01 7/12/99
                   FROM - KQ
                   SB ! I can see you've been toying with root theories as well. Very interesting ideas you have there. The spiral perforated
                   tube *might* get filled with roots. The concept is the same as my perforated straws, but the straws are easier to
                   remove, leaving a hollow place. I gonna implement some of this on my next cycle.
                   Man, I want some of what your tokin! Split root system?!? Highly interesting. you could leach one side and feed the
                   other. Then a week later swap them. Or you could do experiements with leaving one side bone dry after root invasion
                   and watering the other side. Try using glucose and citric acid on one side and hydro or organic nutes on the other.
                   If you had a partition all the way up and down the pot with the plant seeded next to the partition, you could leave a dime
                   size hole in the exact middle of the partition for roots to channel thru and invade the other side. This kind of setup may
                   be entirely different than just dividing the roots into two areas as the far roots of this method would have to pass nutes
                   thru the planted side before going to the rest of the vasculature.

                   CG, you got any ideas on this stuff?


                   TOPIC - aerocloner tips
                   DATE - 22:34:00 7/12/99
                   FROM - old hand
                   water striders are cool creatures.bottom of cuttings must stay in total darkness if light gets in it doesnt work to
                   good.dont even look at them for 3to5 days.if tops wilt not enough humidity or to much heat,put something over them to
                   hold humidity, if still not enough humidity drill small holes in corners of lid.foam rubber makes good material to hold
                   cuttings make sure its thick enough light doesnt penetrate and large enough to hold cuttings uprite,just rip or cut when
                   ready.clean aerocloner well between uses.if stems callous but no roots, place them in dirt and treat like a regular
                   cutting, no rooting powder.if leaves yellow do the same,some will die some may make it.cuttings seem to like
                   florescent grow tubes.trying to be less blunt


                   TOPIC - Lighting setup
                   DATE - 21:38:59 7/12/99
                   FROM - Nugget
                   Thanks for the info Bushy Older Grower.
                   I can easily raise the pots so the top of the pot is 130cm from the lights is this close enough? The globes I'm using are
                   the Lucagrow 600 WATT globes (lu600/ho/t/40/l) from GE lighting. I've got nothing to compare them with does anyone
                   know of these globes? The globe is rated at up to 28,500 hours of use is that bad/good/normal? You recomended MH
                   lamps for grow what advantages does that have (not in terms of the light spectrum but actual physical differences in the
                   plants or efficiency etc)?


                   TOPIC - KQ
                   DATE - 20:41:40 7/12/99
                   FROM - sb
                   An after-thought;
                   What would be the net effect if a plants roots were effectively split, with approximately half of the root mass in each of 2
                   sides of a planter and fed alternately?


                   TOPIC - formating post text.
                   DATE - 20:19:05 7/12/99
                   FROM - Strider
                   Would one of You kind souls tell me why my posts don't show up the way I format them ? Spaces..paragraphs..ect.
                   makes for a lot easier reading with a break or two. Thanks.


                   TOPIC - Thanks
                   DATE - 19:58:43 7/12/99
                   FROM - Strider
                   Vic...! I have visited your cloning page several times. Along with every other post and page I could find. Its the lab part
                   of this growing course I'm struggling with. Thanks to All..for the effort to help me. MR SOUL..... I too, am interested in a
                   good air/co2 exchage schedual for an ac application. I had to laugh at my self.ha ha. You said in a sentance what took
                   me a whole page to say. Obviously I havent masterd that Art. Maybe I ought to change my handle to ramblin Man. ha
                   ha. OT1........ Not the news/reality I hoped to hear. Would I be right in thinking that, in a small 210 cft volume room the
                   frequency of venting would need to be increased or basicly constant. Gets 100+ here. So, based on my fan ratings,
                   untill I can afford a co2 set up, I will vent every 30 min to 1hr for 5min and see how the electric bill looks and what
                   results/quality I get from the grow.Thanks for the info... Strider.


                   TOPIC - KQ...RAM-AIR IV hotrod pot
                   DATE - 19:49:52 7/12/99
                   FROM - sb
                   Hey Bud
                   I am still enjoying that EM...good food for thought.
                   I've been contemplating the idea of forced airflow to the root system.With a nice loose mix, I figure that a coiled,
                   perforated piece of poly tubing laid in during planting could very well work .My assumption is that feeding intervals
                   would shorten as nutrient uptake increased, moving a bio system a step closer to hydro.
                   Currently I'm playing with a bubbleing perlite bed for clones which I see as a similar venture.I'll report on the results in a
                   week or two.


                   TOPIC - weedbase replacement
                   DATE - 18:58:11 7/12/99
                   FROM - pi

                   help us make it a success. thanks


                   TOPIC - i need 2 more primo strains. help!
                   DATE - 18:40:43 7/12/99
                   FROM - fatboy
                   howdy all, i would appreciate suggestions!

                   i've gotten a hold of cindy 88 and apollo 13. i've tried them both in various stages of flowering.

                   Although the cindy is lovely, I like the apollo stony buzz the best.

                   i'm looking for a couple of strains. i want as much variety in my private life as possible.
                   i've always loved the hawaiian from the 70's...the smell...the look...THE BUZZZZZ...:)

                   any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

                   thank you.
                   smokinapolloandlovinher :)


                   TOPIC - reverse osmosic
                   DATE - 14:23:44 7/12/99
                   FROM - wacky1
                   Thanks for the info Irish and oldtimer I'll check out the spectrapure maxpure system looks like it would work nicely.


                   TOPIC - correction
                   DATE - 13:48:43 7/12/99
                   FROM - BushyOlderGrower (oops)
                   that is 30 watts per sq ft or higher in flower room maybe 50. Oh and ys 2400 hps is a lot of light still is too high up for
                   short plants, keep well lit.
                   BushyOlderGrower. PEACE


                   TOPIC - Nuggets question about set up
                   DATE - 13:43:19 7/12/99
                   FROM - BushyOlderGrower
                   Ok I bet your plants are too close now in the cupboard if leaves curling, heat stress is high in that small a space should
                   have at least 12 inches away and temp below 90. Your new room sounds cool but you have a big space to light all on
                   1800 watts, you will need to raise the crop a lot at first and lots of vertical height is not desired as the plants wont get
                   enough light down further and will require second harvest or just waste time. I think you have plenty of headroom and
                   just venting the heat out would be easy. Plants should be 1 to 3 ft from a 600 hps. #0 watts per sq ft. is needed and I
                   like more light than that and you should use MH in gro room, flower with all sodium or 2 sodiums to 1 mh. Conversion
                   bulbs are available for both kinds of ballasts. You can gro a lot with that flowering room. You seem to have light far
                   enough away so check temp if that is ok may be a deficiency. If to far away the internodal spaces will be longer yes
                   and yeild wont be better than if you had fully lit. Good Luck with your room.


                   TOPIC - wacky ed h...
                   DATE - 13:32:16 7/12/99
                   FROM - irish
                   reverse osmosis/ DI water from spectrapure:
                   8.5 pH from the tap at room temp.
                   after filtering:
                   6.5 room temp.

                   those house ones are nice, but they are still $200-300 us and only get you 9-20 gallons per day. for $300 US you can
                   get a much better and more efficient one. the top'o'the line "spectraplus" (160 to 300+ gal per day)
                   is about $550


                   they are in arizona.

                                                   Link: spectrapure water filtration


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 13:24:18 7/12/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Hi there wacky1 The best thing to do is to put a water softener on your incoming water supply this will get rid of the
                   bicarbonates ie makes your water soft. You need to do this in hard water areas as the bicarbonates will reduce the Ro
                   membrane life to a year or two against 10 years + with soft water. Using this system increased our yields by about
                   20%. Hope this helps.

                   Hi Soul you never answered the Q for you I posted below[DATE - 12:57:15 6/18/99].

                   I reckon the quickest way to do the cube is to take it to bits and reassemble about 30 seconds or less its called lateral
                   cheating hehe.

                   If you want to run 4 hrs between complete air exchange which is a lot longer than recommended you could do with a
                   parts per million co2 reader controller because running at 65 w per sq ft the plants will use most the co2 in 7 to 10
                   mins. For a near natural growth pattern, air con parameters should be programmed off at 70 f on at 80 f and co2 on at
                   300 ppm off at 400 ppm, this will give you close to the results of changing all the air in the room every 2 minutes or
                   less. To grow at 90 f off and 95 f on with the air con the ppm for co2 need to cycle between 1300 and 1500 ppm this
                   makes a saving on the air con consumption. We tried taking the co2 up to 2000 ppm and it just cost gas no
                   improvement, above 95 the plants just seem to stop growing. Being a lot colder here an air con is hardly necessary we
                   think that the best quality puff is produced by having fast air exchange sorry i cant help more.

                   Oh yes nice to see you and I just put that project under way today.

                   All the best Ot1.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 11:21:28 7/12/99
                   FROM - KQ
                   Soul nice to see ya--mon, thought you were dead or something! But I truley understand, pal, believe me. There is no
                   book written on what you have mastered, but you are still free. BTW, got any flowering schedules in mind?!? My last
                   cannister had an overgrowth of fungi. Feel free to write me anytime, anywhere.

                   Rubiks cube? of course I cannot solve one--I'm always too busy visualizing dirt and straws! Solid cylinders would work
                   nicely if ya didn't want any perforations to supply 02 while the roots were filling in. I do plan to try chunks of broomstick
                   one day soon, but for a slightly different purpose. PVC pipe is cheap and fun to work with as well. I've played around
                   with fabricating plastic dividers in planters. Then planting on each side of said divider. Then, when they get bigger, just
                   transplant to another pot the same size but only one per. Then fill the empty side with new soil. Man, they love this
                   treatment and take over that new soil with gusto. Can be handy during flowering. No transplant shock whatsoever!


                   TOPIC - Cool
                   DATE - 10:57:42 7/12/99
                   FROM - Soul
                   KQ_~ Just out of curiousity, can you solve a Rubik's Cube? If so, what's your fastest time? Anything under two
                   minutes is excellent IMO.
                   You're right about perlite - it's pumice.
                   The straws don't need to be hollow - solid rods would work too. {"8^)_~

                   Anyone using A/C want to advise me on the best way to coordinate venting to maximize the cooling effect of the A/C?

                   Seems to me: You should suck all the air out of the room; it's refilled by warmer air entering from an outside source via
                   an inlet fan. The room will need A/C on max following the evauation period which equals the volume of the room divided
                   by the CFM of the exhaust fan, multiplied by two for good measure ;-) until the desired temp is achieved. The plant's
                   atmosphere should be refreshed about every 4 hours during lights-on & just enough to control humidity during dark
                   hours. Correct?



                   TOPIC - Reverse Osmosic
                   DATE - 06:08:38 7/12/99
                   FROM - wacky1
                   Greetings,I,d been thinking about purchasing a reverse osmosic system to eliminate the chlorine and hardwater
                   problem in my water supply ph 8.0-8.5,Will the reverse osmosic reduce my ph level down to a acceptable level 6.5-7.0
                   or will I still have to use a ph reducer to adjust my ph level.The system will be use for drinking water as well am think
                   about the kind that mount under the sink.Any advice or recommendations are appreciated.tia

                   wacky1 aka edhassle


                   TOPIC - aero clones...min soil shock?
                   DATE - 22:18:02 7/11/99
                   FROM - nada
                   I have one of thouse cheap aero clone boxes I built via 10K...one I got the little things under controll it worked really
                   well. The only thing I was weiry of were the long aero roots going right into a castings/v/p medium...the much read
                   about soil shock.

                   Was thinking about this...rather than placing the cuts into small holes on the lid of the box...cut 1x1 squares in the lid
                   to hold a RW/Oasis cube which the cut is then placed into. Adjust the water level so that the cube sits on the VERY
                   TOP level of the water..and follow earlier sucessful parameters.

                   Anyone think that the rooting process will be the same as w/out the cube, and if so...by using a cube the shock of
                   transplanting of the cuts into the medium would be minimized? Suggestions appreciated-



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 22:12:48 7/11/99
                   FROM - KQ
                   Dont like that one? Okay, then just cut the straws so the go from the bottom of the soil pot to about an inch under the
                   surface of the dirt. Then when things are grown tightly, tap the rootball out of the pot and remove straws. Just another
                   variation. The previous example would allow water to run down the holes when straws are removed. The above example
                   would have an inch of root laden soil to disperse water before it hit the air channels. More food for thought.

                   Irish, You must be thinking of the polymer crytals that swell and contract according to moisture content. Perlite is fairly
                   rigid stuff. Interesting concept anyway! I've always found that the more non-soil stuff I add (perlite) the more
                   temperamental the mix seems to be. The maximum non-soil in this case would be 100% perlite, now you're talking
                   hydro which can be alot more temperamental than soil mixes!


                   TOPIC - Message for CG
                   DATE - 22:04:33 7/11/99
                   FROM - KQ
                   Curious George, you really are an innovative person! Here is something I've toyed with in the past but never done
                   anything about it-- Put plastic disposable drinking straws (perforated if you need to) into the dirt when loading the pot.
                   Maybe 10 or 20 of them that span from the bottom to just above the lip of the pot. When the roots are all holding the
                   dirt together tightly, just pull the straws out and their are your air channels. If they are perforated with small holes then
                   you might rip a few small roots anytime you remove them. But why remove them at all if you have enuff holes in them?
                   Like I said, I never have done this, but it does sound interesting!


                   TOPIC - isn't that what perlite is for?
                   DATE - 22:00:37 7/11/99
                   FROM - irish
                   when the perlite touches water it swells, right?
                   then, as it dries, the space created in the soil by the shrinking perlite fills with air due to a vacuum effect, thus
                   "pumping" air in and down to the roots.

                   or were you guys talking pure o2??


                   TOPIC - Pumping air to the roots
                   DATE - 21:37:43 7/11/99
                   FROM - Capn Chronic
                   It's my thinking that if you also humidify the air with a real nice humidifier that also partially warms the air. The roots
                   would respond much better at the same time the warm air high humidity conditions while feeding extra o2 would also
                   help microbes to thrive. Producing ideal conditions in a all organic mixes. Does this sound right or am I talkin out of my



                   TOPIC - Pumping Air to the Roots?
                   DATE - 20:11:48 7/11/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   Why can't extra O2 be provided to plant roots in a soil container via a pump? If a system of plastic hoses was installed
                   near the bottom of a container, and the air was warmed to just over the temp. of the room, would the air rise inside the
                   container and help the roots?

                   Maybe the tubes could be placed around the edges of the container, so the roots get to the extra O2 at the same time
                   they "hit the wall".

                   If the soil mixture was sufficiently loose, why wouldn't it work? Or would it even be worth the trouble?

                   Just Curious ... ?



                   TOPIC - aero rooting.....
                   DATE - 16:41:27 7/11/99
                   FROM - irish
                   "if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need...."

                   aero rooting, ~shabang~ "sprinkler style", where the water is aeroponically sprayed onto the dangling cuts.

                   you will find (as 10k said) "hot" or "dry" spots. where the sprayers don't reach. those have to be dealt with or the holes
                   accordingly plugged. my little buddy uses one tablespoon of all three GH nutes in a five gallon container, pH balanced.
                   he usually sees roots in about 3-5 days (sometimes as many as seven). he started out taking the rooted cuts (1/2 to 1
                   inch long white spikes) and placing them directly into grorox, (red clay pellets). he lost a lot of them, found he needed
                   to keep them in higher humidity.
                   he started to place the big clear plastic picnic cups over the cuts, spraying the inside with plain water to increase

                   this would still take two weeks or so to even see a recovery of the babies.

                   now, aero rooting 3-5 days, until bumps show, water cycle half hour on, 1 hour off (colder weather 1 1/2 hour spacing
                   was used a few times per 24 hour cycle, due to a mushy cut problem). then placed in oasis cubes (the crumbly ones)
                   cubes are soaked in the same water inside the aero reservoir. then placed into the appropriate hydro basket (1" or 4")
                   then inside a short wide "picnic" cup with a taller narrower "picnic" cup on top, so he has a full tray of mini green
                   houses. all of these are in a plastic nursery tray.
                   if he is doing a lot, he will use the premade "greenhouse tops" that can be purchased with the trays. he does this
                   without the extra "picnic" cups on the bottom and just fills the tray up at the bottom with water (changed every two

                   both section of this system (cloner and rooting clones) are sitting on top of a heating mat made for seedlings.

                   he does the sort of Vic maneuver and just sprays them when he feels like it, once or twice a day maybe.

                   he has told me that his northern lights variety roots like crazy but takes a while to actually grow anything, while his big
                   bud x shiva skunk (BG's Green Giant) will be tough to see any actual roots out of the oasis cubes but grows amazingly
                   fast. when roots finally appear they are like santa's beard thick and white and everywhere.

                   he has also put them directly from the cloner into his nft setup (fed six to seven times daily / about a three and a half
                   hour spacing) with the mini cups above them and had great results (with rocks and with cubes, better with cubes and
                   less watering than with the rocks and more watering)

                   what was i saying?... basically, all plants will react different, just pay some attention to them, not too much. if they wilt
                   put a cover over them to increase humidity. if they yellow add some nutes to the water, if they aren't growing, maybe
                   too much water/drowning them or time to take off the cover for a while and get some fresh air in there.

                   if you would like more info, he also did some rockwool clones, some verm/per clones, some wormcasting/verm/per
                   clones, and has results from that. but i am tired of typing.
                   all using the same method and all came out great, in fact better methods with ver/per in cups than the nft stuff.



                   TOPIC - aero cloner
                   DATE - 15:47:36 7/11/99
                   FROM - chronic man
                   On the subject of aero cloners, it makes me shudder...hehe I've fiddled and fussed with that damned thing for quite a
                   while, to no avail. I tried all different heights of the water, different temperatures, different spray cycles, everything. One
                   thing I just noticed though, my PH pen was out of calibration. Way off. I discovered that the distilled water that I was
                   using was at about 8.7-9.0. Gee..do ya think that could be it??? Well, I'm gonna try it again, and this time I'll try to get
                   the PH just a little lower. I know this thing has to work, I have a friend that uses it, so I know it works. One thing
                   though, he says it takes 3-4 days for the plants to get accustomed to the soil. So I guess it would still be faster than
                   the perlite/vermiculite mixture I've used in the past.
                   (5+3to4=8 to 9 days, compared to 10-14 days in the per/verm
                   mixture) plus it sure would be easier to just snip a clone, drop it in the cloner, and wait for 5 days, compared to other
                   methods, which can be messy and time consuming.

                   Anyways, I'll let you know how it works this time. Some of the things suggested to me were, the clones were getting
                   too much water, only distilled water should be used, (maybe some superthrive), and the temp was off. I guess it should
                   be around 78 degrees. Although I'm not sure if this is a big factor. Also someone asked me if my PH was off. Of course
                   I said to myself "Seems OK.." DUH
                   Good luck, and like I said earlier, I know this thing works great. It's just a matter of gettin it down.

                   cHrOnIc man



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 10:07:46 7/11/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Hey strider, I usually ignore my clones, regardless of media, until I see new growth. New growth usually means they
                   are rooted for me. Here's a link to my cloning page - I'm not sure what else I can add to it.

                   As for your electrical, I'm going to have read it again, my brain needs more coffee because it didn't catch what you
                   were saying the first time, haha.


                   TOPIC - Message below
                   DATE - 09:40:46 7/11/99
                   FROM - Nugget
                   Just to clarfiy that last message a bit (sorry it's late)I'm basically worried about whether having the plants that far from
                   the lights in my new room will drastically increase the internodal length (it is possible to raise the plants a foot or so).
                   Also help with the cupboard setup would be appreciated (additionally I forgot to mention that the plants in the cupboard
                   were reasonally big, ready to change to flowering cycle).


                   TOPIC - Fixed lighting system
                   DATE - 09:16:46 7/11/99
                   FROM - Nugget
                   I'm currently rebuilding my setup into something a bit more permanent. Basically it's now a sealed room made of
                   treated wood (with white laminate covering or white paint) measuring 10 x 4 feet at the base and reaching 7 feet 2
                   inches high. I want to mount the lighting on top of the roof as this allows for more height, allows for an easier light
                   cooling method and keeps the room free of clutter. However this will mean that I will not be able to raise and lower the
                   lights. I'm using four 600w hps, C02 enrichment (bottle fed), and a run to waste system to grow three plants (effectively
                   the legal limit)with a minimum expectation of 10 oz per plant. How much and in what way will not being able to lower
                   the lights effect my plants? Because of the quantity of light I'm using and the fact that I will be growing my plants to fill
                   the room I figure that it won't matter but am I right? Also at the moment (only during the construction) my plants are in
                   a cupboard under a single 600w hps (no C02) and the top leaves (new growth) are all very dark green and curling
                   significantly. The light is about 30-40 cm away from the plants (as far as is possible) is this the problem? The plants
                   are also in small pots of perlite as opposed to the coconut fibre and clay balls I usually use and so I'm watering them
                   about two litres every six hours with solution mixed as according to the bottle (not as high as usual because there's no
                   C02). Is this OK or could this also be the cause of the curling?


                   TOPIC - straight perlite cloning
                   DATE - 07:39:01 7/11/99
                   FROM - Cowboy
                   dude,my friend has had some success with straight perlite in a small greenhouse 12"by 16" with a dome and a resovoir
                   that feeds through a wick system.its a store bought unit from greentrees or some such place.using about 1/4 strength
                   nutes success at cloning takes a little longer than the cheapo aero(3 to 4 weeks)but no misting and no fussing.clones
                   were cut and put into the fridge in a small bucket with a slight amount of moisture for 24 hrs.then popped into the mini
                   greenhouse and left alone on the side of a 400 watt veg grow.although the cheapo aero works magnificently for this
                   friend now.and this friend tried everything.good luck.


                   TOPIC - cloning problems
                   DATE - 07:20:07 7/11/99
                   FROM - Strider
                   cowboy..... I0K's version of the areo cloner is what I used just hasn't panned out for me. Blazer.... the clones I put in
                   p/v using rootone looked the best the longest. they just wouldn't put out roots. all the clones just sort of ran out of gas
                   so to speak b4 they rooted. I dont know if the plants I am taking cuttings from are still suitible for taking more? They
                   haven't started budding big time yet but all the growing tips have several clusters of flowers on them.( have them
                   outside) I may have to just start more plants from seed. and keep them in veg till I get this cloning thing down. I guess I
                   will try the rockwool along with the p/v and use a dome. I'll see if I can figure a way to add some bottom heat without
                   overdoing it. Like the song says.." you can't allways get what you want." Hell... I'd just like to get what I need. Sorry for
                   the long/hard to read post b4. I shouldn't smoke, listen to Dylan and post all at the same time,LOL... Strider.


                   TOPIC - NEW SITE! Cloning
                   DATE - 21:31:57 7/10/99
                   FROM - Blazer
                   Cowboy and all this new site Vic mentioned will have a search engine w/ more info that's new and cutting edge as well
                   as the old stand by's. Coming soon, these boy's have thier ducks inna row now;)
                   I know the boys that made the cloner at weedbase and many people that have varied it w/ great success. They say
                   good roots in some strains at 4 days. I can't get it to work for shit Myself! LOL I've seen it work wonders though. I don't
                   know what I did wrong and aren't usually in too big of a hurry so I stick w/ the Clonex rooting gel and Oasis cubes. I
                   sometimes use a v/p combo and have used RW in the past all using the same method. A nice clean cut at a node if
                   possible, dip in the gel and poke it in the cube or v/p or whatever and cover w/ a dome. I drop the flouro's on there
                   heads literally on 24/7 and mist when I see the dome not being covered in condensation w/ h2o and superthrive or just
                   h2o.around day 5-6 start lifting the dome and or cut out a few air holes. BTW I always cover the bottom of My cloning
                   trays w/ a 1/4" or so of vermiculite in an attempt to draw the roots down from the cubes via moisture and it also helps
                   keep the roots toasty. By week 2 I always have roots growing in the verm. and some leaves are beginning to yellow
                   asking for ferts.. I've seen a million ways of cloning, hell some guys still use a glass of h2o in a window! LOL All can
                   work. I find My way damn simple and forgiving watering wise since the verm. holds in some so well. heating matts are
                   something I've started using just lately and I think it may shave a few days if I remember correctly last time. I'll post
                   more on that asap, it's that time again. That's My 2 cents, simpler is better IMO, especially at 1st. Less variables to
                   think of and or rule out down the road. Actually, I'd like to see someone else do the aero tub and rub it in My face until I
                   get stubborn/patient enough to dial in Mine!


                   TOPIC - strider and cloning
                   DATE - 18:54:49 7/10/99
                   FROM - cowboy
                   Howdy dude,
                   My friend used to fight the cloning thing,she tried all different types of methods with varying degrees of success .Then
                   my friend happened across this cheapo aero cloner made by 10k over at weedbase before it went to what it is now.MY
                   friend built one and it worked so good she built a second one.I swear to you that it works great,my friend lets the roots
                   get fairly large and then transplants directly into square 5.25 inch pots of fired clay pebbles.
                   I have the link as it got bookmarked.Any questions just holler i lurk here a lot.Hope the link works for you.




                   TOPIC - New Site
                   DATE - 17:58:10 7/10/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Webby, you missed a spot! I better post it here for you to spare this cultured crowd you engineeering spelling, haha.
                   Everyone - the new replacement for Weedbase is almost here, woo hoo!! Can't wait. I hope it has a search engine like
                   the old one and allows password protection of our aliases. This news made my day, now maybe we can but Weedbase
                   to rest once and for all.

                   Strider - good to hear from you, I'll come back later and give your problem a good read if someone doesn't beat me to it.
                   My cloning methods of very basic, haha. Mold is my only enemy, haha.


                   TOPIC - Grow woe/someone to talk to
                   DATE - 14:36:06 7/10/99
                   FROM - Strider
                   Hi All.. Greetings! Funny how I feel like I know and am old friends with everyone who posts here. But, after lurking and
                   learning here for the past 10 mo, it just comes natural. I try to follow the "seek, lurk, read" advice. I've spent the last
                   months setting up, tweaking, experiencing my grow. Growing in the cold months from seed, no problems. I have'nt
                   done a summer grow yet and my cloning attempt has me frustrated. I've tried to build a year round system thats neat
                   and tidy. LoL.My grow's a converted tack/feed room 6x7x6.6, I grow in soil.I have 2 400w hps diamond
                   lights.Venting/air system consists of an a/c and 2. 110 cftm continious duty rated intake/exhaust fans. They are
                   controlled using a 120v wall thermo and/or a timer. run thru a 24v coil, single pole double throw 120/240v switch. 1
                   contact NO the other NC.The Nclosed contact feeds the 120v thermo, its the primary venting circut.(works good as
                   long as outside air temp is low. tho i'm woried about its long term reliability/safety and will probably switch to a 24v
                   system.) The Nopen feeds the same fans but is run thru a 24v sprinkler timer. Anyone use these.? the timer has 3
                   programs x 6 sub programs each, for total of 18 events @ 0 to 2 hrs each. about $80 US. this part of circut will run the
                   fans durring AC operation for air/co2 exchange only. with the 120v wall therm set on 90 as a backup in case ac fails.
                   Durring testing/simulation for summer grow I found I had too large a btu ac for room size 7.5k. Cooled down quick but
                   no humidity removal. I swapped for a 5k . With one 400w running I can keep the room 80 degrees at 70% humidity and
                   AC run time minimal. 2 lights is just too much heat, ac runs double and humidity drops. what do you think is a good
                   timer schedual for air/co2 exchange.I have programed/tested @ every 2 hrs for 5 min. air volume is 210 cft. 1 light 6
                   plants. As to my cloning attempts, I'm having problems. just b4 it got hot i vegged 3 ak47 3 blueberry, to about 24"set
                   them outside and took 16 clones. this being my first clone attempt i tried 3 diff ways, per/verm, soil. areo. the areo
                   clones do ok untill they callouse over on bottom of stem. then i have massive leaf die off.(all clones had 3 sets leaves)
                   The p/v looked good for long time. now are yellowing/drooping. soil same. been watering with 1/4 strength fert/distilled
                   water. tried diff enviroments put a few in sunny but not hot window some under 80w flor1ww1cw bulb. all look pityfull.
                   had 2 of the areos get bumps put them in soil have kept soil moist and mist twice a day. floros are about 18" above
                   plants humidity is 80% all clones but six have died, and they look as if they may also. so I may have to regroup and try
                   again. Ill need to do it soon b4 outside plants start to flower. I've always had a big veg garden and a green thumb of
                   sorts. We do a lot of canning every year, This clone thing frustrates but, wont defeat me. Any help/info would be
                   appreciated I Respect and trust the advice/info shared here. On some forums you wonder if the giver has ever really
                   grown anything. here if you show you have put out some effort and thought things out and are seeking advice or
                   shareing a revelation, folks are eager to converse. If you have your head up your ass or want all your work done for you.
                   Its buzz off bub..! Makes visiting this fourm a pleasure. Hats off to you Vic..! Allso, didnt realize how handy and
                   informative the search at weedbase was till it went down.....Peace.....Strider.


                   TOPIC - SOULMAN
                   DATE - 11:14:12 7/10/99
                   FROM - Blazer
                   Hey Bud, don't tell Me yer gettin thin skinned on Me!LOL I know better;) I figured if I threw out a lil slander at You, I get
                   something in return for sure..Works slick eh? It wan't a very warm re welcome, but I figured You'd think I was more Ill
                   than usual if I had something "warm and fuzzy" to get Yer attention. Please stick around more, I'd like to chat and pick
                   Yer lil melon if I may. Many new lil alterations etc. I wanted to share and info as well as maybe some new jeans in the
                   future for Us and I don't mean Levi's.
                   Peace My Friends, enjoy the weekend;)


                   TOPIC - Some Greets & Answers
                   DATE - 10:56:08 7/10/99
                   FROM - Soul
                   Blazer_~ Hey y'all! What do call folks you DON'T like?

                   Danbo_~ You're quite welcome. Thanks for the update & please don't forget to report on the outdoor results come

                   Ju_ce71_~ Your C99s are growing pretty much normally. Even though the temps are high, that much CO2 allows the
                   plants to keep up with in the increase in their metabolism (Rule of thumb: Temp range is extended +10 degrees with
                   CO2). Personally, I don't believe THC production is increased in response to high growroom temps - that's not been my
                   experience. I've gotten my best indoor crops during cold months.


                   TOPIC - diane
                   DATE - 10:28:51 7/10/99
                   FROM - sb
                   yes you can place the young clones under the combo light for 12 and under flourescent lighting for the remaining
                   portion of your artificial "day".
                   Also 24 hours of light works just fine, but I have switched to 18 hour days without any noticable decline in growth.


                   TOPIC - Thanks Irish
                   DATE - 10:03:03 7/10/99
                   FROM - Skinman
                   Hey Irish my fish thank you from the bottom of their aquatic little hearts. That is exactly the site I was looking for and
                   I'd already been through boodles of sites on the net to date, kinda daunting with all the info out there. These were right
                   in my expected price range, think I'll be getting one for them soon. A great help, thanks again. Peace, Love and go
                   naked, Skinman out.


                   TOPIC - Diane again
                   DATE - 09:28:23 7/10/99
                   FROM - ju_ce71
                   Diane the rest of that post was deleted somehow.
                   ?800w mh/hps, which one is it MH or HPS I'm unaware of a
                   combo bulb, or for that matter 800w bulbs.
                   ?newbie clones, what does that mean.
                   You what to flower with your greatest lumen
                   source(brightest light)
                   Diane 12/12 means 12hours of light followed by 12hours of
                   grow peace


                   TOPIC - ?diane
                   DATE - 09:22:11 7/10/99
                   FROM - ju-ce71
                   greetings diane, I hope you are enjoying good health and
                   peace of mind.
                   Diane you said>I have one room with a 800w mh/hpsI'm ready for flowering, but i have newbie
                   clones. Can i move those clones after 12hrs under
                   the 800w to a less (cheap) powerful light source
                   for the other 12?Also, I read not to apply bloom fertilizer during
                   flowering because of taste...is this true? How soon
                   before flower time should i apply fertilizer?<

                   Diane you will apply bloom ferts during flowering but
                   depending on what experts you follow you will just use water
                   to clear, any where from the last 7 days up to 3 weeks
                   before harvest.
                   Finally Diane you might what to read some of the online grow
                   guides to get a little better understanding of the grow
                   process a lot of people(not me;) )get fairly upset at
                   answering questions from new growers.


                   TOPIC - THC and Stress
                   DATE - 09:03:38 7/10/99
                   FROM - ju_ce71
                   Greetings Pi, that was an interesting test. The reference
                   at Hydro minerals makes no mention of "arid" or UV per se
                   just refers to heat. I'm wondering if 93 is just hot enough
                   to reduce yield but not enought to create stress. Hydro
                   mentions that they were doing test on clone groups(same
                   genetics) with heat all the way up to 98+, which reduced
                   yield by 25% but increased potency. Increased heat to reduce
                   yield and increase potency obviously wouldn't do for most
                   situations but for that personal primo stash maybe.

                   Curious George, on reflections I did exactly that with my
                   current(and first) grow. At the base of each container there
                   is a mylar square with a slit to accommodate the plant,
                   justed seemed intuitive to try to reflect as much light at

                   Chronic, how about IMHO(in my humble opinion), and BTW(by
                   the way) and finally NFM(no further message)



                   TOPIC - light changes
                   DATE - 08:41:24 7/10/99
                   FROM - diane
                   I have one room with a 800w mh/hps. Question
                   is: I'm ready for flowering, but i have newbie
                   clones. Can i move those clones after 12hrs under
                   the 800w to a less (cheap) powerful light source
                   for the other 12? If so, any suggestions?
                   Also, I read not to apply bloom fertilizer during
                   flowering because of taste...is this true? How soon
                   before flower time should i apply fertilizer?
                   Thanx for your help :)



                   TOPIC - OffTopic and Irish
                   DATE - 07:29:39 7/10/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi All,
                   Irish thanks for the heads up;-) Ive had a Reeftank up since
                   1990, I just(Dec/98) lost the last original resident(3 spot hawaian humbug damsel) that was there from the original
                   cycle 9 years ago! I have a Pink Skunk clown thats 7 years old, and a Yellow Tang thats 5. IMO the key to keeping
                   marine animals thriving in a Reeftank, is massive filteration and water movement(current). In a 55gal tank, I have a
                   "wet/dry filter" a canister filter, and a lowlevel powerhead, combined they move over 500gph, the intakes for the filters
                   are on the rightside of the tank, and the exhusts are on the left side, as is the power head, creating a fast moving left to
                   right current. My fish have to keep swimming to stay above there coral heads, just like in the ocean. This really keeps
                   them in good condition , and not getting fat and lazy. And the over filteration of the water keeps a great water quality.
                   All I do is replace evoprated water with treated(amquel, novaqua, and Trace elements) tap water, and do a 10-20%
                   change each 3-4 months. And a small animal load helps also. Following these steps, I have had marine animals
                   exceed there "commerical seaquarium" life expectancy by 2 years in some cases! I have a friend in Miami who has a
                   clown fish for 18 years! Both hobbys are alike in many ways, and both bring alot of satisfaction;-) Sorry for the OTP.




                   TOPIC - thc
                   DATE - 02:29:40 7/10/99
                   FROM - pi
                   my take on the topic of increased thc prodution is that i saw the word 'arid' and assumed that to mean dry and 'cool'.

                   another thc altering factor often mentioned is this uv thing which tends to be associated with mj grown at hi altitude. if
                   one puts these two together they make more sense.

                   besides being exposed to more uv rays, hi altitude mj would possibly be in cool and arid climate (mountaintop) vs arid
                   and hot (desert). seems like MJ Botony makes this same destinction in a veiled way.

                   anyhow that is how i see it. i have tried using a dehumidifier without compensating a/c and really saw no diff and
                   maybe a slight decrease in buds and an increase in mites. temp was running as hi as 93 deg.i now had a 15k btu wall
                   unit but i will waite until winter to test this out however.



                   TOPIC - male plants
                   DATE - 00:59:59 7/10/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   unlucky-what I'd do is let it finish and make butter out of it. Use 4-6 oz of plant matter to a pound of butter.

                   boil the plant matter and water a 1/2 hour--add butter and boil for two hours at the lowest setting that will allow for

                   Pour everything thru a cheeseclothe (available at supermarkets) into containers that will fit into the fridge. Really
                   squeeze the shit out of the plant matter, the butter doesn't come out without a battle.

                   Put yer liquid in the fridge, throw away the plant matter. The butter will seperate from the water and harden on top.

                   Cook with 2x butter in cake/cookie recipes.

                   Eat a small tester before indulging. Wait an hour.

                   I'm not kidding with the testor. I ate too much a few batches back and woke seven hours later on my bathroom floor.

                   eating is a different experience from toking--much more powerful. easy on the lungs too.....


                   TOPIC - damn...one more... of course...=)
                   DATE - 23:47:02 7/09/99
                   FROM - irish
                   the new chat site you visited....
                   be careful, it lists IP's directly on the message. I am sure you are proxied to the hilt, but i noticed this trend and
                   thought i should say something. also there are a lot of cookies thrown around at that place.

                   thank you vic, for no cookies.and everyone here for all the info.


                   TOPIC - link again hopefully
                   DATE - 22:23:19 7/09/99
                   FROM - irish
                   one more try, but just in case...

                                                 Link: reverse osmosis water filtration


                   TOPIC - reverse osmosis AND di....link
                   DATE - 22:21:48 7/09/99
                   FROM - irish
                   here ya go...the big mama (spectraplus, i think) of this place is about 550 american (shipped). 160 gallons per day. 50
                   gallons will take some planning.

                   they also have a high pressure pump attachment that will get you 300-400 Gpd. all GOOD aquarium places should be
                   able to get you this fine beauty, for your freshwater and/or tropical tank. this should reduce their stress and death rate
                   caused by normal water changes.

                   good luck starting your REEF hobby. i think your clownfish will love it...000ppm from 8.5 and 215ppm.



                   TOPIC - Heat THC compenstation
                   DATE - 20:07:06 7/09/99
                   FROM - ju_ce71
                   I hope all are enjoying good health and peace of mind. Soul
                   you mentioned that high heat 90+ results in leaner harvest
                   a condition I know has been documented at several places.
                   I'm curious however? was the bud you did harvest of a higher
                   THC content. There seems to be some new info that the
                   potency of ganga is stable at moderate temps, but as
                   reaction to heat the plant will increase THC production.?
                   have you tried CO2 to take advantage of the heat. I have c99
                   growing in a room with avg daytime temp of about 92-94 with
                   CO2 at 1300-1500 and althought the plants are not real
                   tall, they are extremely sturdy and show 10-12 nodes sites
                   at 11inchs.



                   TOPIC - pi & JUICE users,BudM 30X Mag
                   DATE - 18:00:14 7/09/99
                   FROM - Blazer
                   Pi I forgot to mention that sometimes its a must to add the juice over a 2 day interval unless You dont mind using PH
                   up. If I add all of mine at 1 time, I can usually get away w/ it at a ph of about 5.5, but it rises in 12 hours You'll soon
                   find. Citric acid doesn't have the staying power of Phos. acid for ph up, it looses it's low ph effects fast. My tap PH is
                   8.2 and up sometimes w/ a ppm of atleast 220 at the lowest. Some friends in Ontario have over 800 ppm in Thiers! Wild
                   how it varis so much geographically. I'm rambling now, LOL Goodluck, don't give up on it!
                   *BudM I've had that samelighted mag glass for a long time, it's wicked isn't it? I saw a 100x shaped just like it w/ a tray
                   and stand out yesterday on sale for 10$ and the 30X was 6$. I'd get them fellas, makes seeing clearly much easier;)


                   TOPIC - male plant
                   DATE - 16:38:30 7/09/99
                   FROM - unlucky
                   anybody know of a way to make the most of a male plant if the females were eaten by critters? I cant bear to kill it if
                   its the only one left.



                   TOPIC - General Stuff
                   DATE - 14:54:23 7/09/99
                   FROM - Skinman
                   Hi all,

                   Was wondering if anyone knows good sites for ordering RO/DI 3-4 stage water purifiers?

                   Danbo - Wondering if you could tell me some background on the Quick I am playing around with? Got a few from Sub
                   and was wondering the geneology.

                   Have a good weekend all!
                   Skinman out.


                   TOPIC - Soul
                   DATE - 07:37:35 7/09/99
                   FROM - Danbo
                   Hey Buddy, Good to see you out and about. The C-99 went
                   their way from my place. I haven't heard anything since.
                   Have you? You're a true Gent Mr. Soul. I miss seeing you around.


                   TOPIC - Pi
                   DATE - 07:28:40 7/09/99
                   FROM - Danbo
                   Sounds like you're making beer or wine. In essence this is
                   true. Many of the bio.catylists are just that. Even using
                   inverted sugars will drop your ph that way. It's all that
                   acid that it takes to make sucrose , glucose so the plants
                   can metabolise it. Just use some ph up and balance it between 6.3 and 6.8. I thought we wanted the sugar coating on
                   the outside?


                   TOPIC - Net Buster
                   DATE - 07:22:18 7/09/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi again, I wanted to post the addy for "Net Buster" its freeware and downloadable, and will protect your machine from
                   Trojans,its the program that "occam" was posting about that thwarts the hackers attempt with a false root directory, it
                   seems fairly easy to config, and has a lot of fetures, the addy is http://www.surf.to/netbuster HTH



                   TOPIC - RS 30x mag
                   DATE - 05:10:34 7/09/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi All-
                   HC- Radio Shack sells a OK 30x cheap maginifyer for about 10$us, it takes a bit to get used to, but it does the job.

                   A great weekend to all ;-)



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 03:48:54 7/09/99
                   FROM - H.C.
                   Hellow all youse fine people. Have a couple of questions for ya.
                   1 The flowering time for NL5xHAZE?
                   2 Where may I get a 30 power Loupe?



                   TOPIC - cane sugar and citrus crystals ph
                   DATE - 02:47:29 7/09/99
                   FROM - pi
                   -my tap water is @ 8.0 ph and 80 ppm
                   -i use wc, v, and p in 50/25/25 ratio for my soil mix
                   -i mixed the cane sugar/cirus acid crystals in 1.0 L so i use 10ml per gal
                   -i now use the mix for 1212 only and @ every watering

                   when i used sugar mix w/ tap water only the ph dropped below 4.0 and the plants did not like and i lost one in veg.

                   when i used sugar mix in conjunction with 1 capful maxicrop(30ml) the ph was approx 5.5 and the plants did not seem
                   to mind as much.

                   my observations are that i should have used ph up or maxicrop when using the concoction and maybe it would be a
                   waste on plants in veg.

                   should i have adjusted further to a 6.5 ph?

                   any input would be appreciated.



                   TOPIC - Blazer
                   DATE - 18:03:08 7/08/99
                   FROM - occam
                   Hey mate, happy to help, if I can; just remember how much free advice is worth. ;)



                   TOPIC - Net Bus again
                   DATE - 17:51:10 7/08/99
                   FROM - occam
                   No prob 180
                   Actually there was no succesful hack. NetBuster emulates the NetBus server, so it appears to the hackers' computer
                   that the NetBus server is installed on the victims'.
                   NetBuster was designed mainly to detect the hack attempt, and to see what the bastard is trying to do.
                   I read somewhere that as many as 30% of mIRC users may have NetBus installed on their computers and don't know
                   it. Something to think about...



                   TOPIC - Wow! Great plant Tools!
                   DATE - 17:33:48 7/08/99
                   FROM - sensi
                   Unbelievable! Be cool if you buy from or contact them:
                   They ARE NOT a "Gro Shop" !!


                   TOPIC - occam, thanks
                   DATE - 16:27:33 7/08/99
                   FROM - 180
                   occam, thanx for the clarification. as long as it's a trojan i'm not overly concerned...although it does suck that someone
                   got your email here and then tried to screw you with a trojan (no pun intended), which is what i'm assuming

                   cult of the dead cow made a big deal about Back Orifice, said that 300,000 copies had been downloaded. big deal, so
                   much the worse for the unwary; it isn't a threat if you're careful. and let's face it, email attachments are a tedious
                   unreliable pain in the ass, "hackers" wouldn't use them if they had a better way to invade your computer, which they
                   don't. that bit about "netbuster's" features was amusing. imagine the poor "hacker", all excited over his first successful
                   exploit, only to find his hard drive all kludged by you. too funny.



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 14:32:52 7/08/99
                   FROM - Vic high
                   Occam - thanks for the info bud. I don't completely follow but I'm a dummy in this area.

                   Blazer - that nozzle of yours sounds good, why not mount it into your intake? That will then cool the incoming air which
                   is what you want and make sure most of the droplets are fully evaporated before they hit your plants. Not sure if you
                   want to be keeping your plants wet or washed.

                   All - mailcity has done a Hotmail and now requires cookies. I won't go there so any mail there won't be answered until I
                   can access it from a remote PC. New Email addy is:




                   TOPIC - Vic&Soul on evap cooling, occam and ALL
                   DATE - 13:28:09 7/08/99
                   FROM - Blazer
                   Hey Gents I too could benefit from the evaporative cooling idea. I have a small patio mister set up right now on the deck
                   that goes w/ the OD spigot. It's nice, but the emmittors aren't as fine as I'd like. I got to looking at them and other
                   systems and the actual parts that the h2o travels thru to become a mist(the emmittor) is a screw in, brass part that
                   looks incredibly similar to the carb. jets I have for some hopped up ATV's We have. I took a few extra's and found the
                   parts needed to affix it to a spigot like the evap. cooling rig. They work great, but are way to fine of a mist, too small of
                   a orifice. They probably emit MAYBE 1/25 of a gallon per hour and the lack of h2o didn't allow for any kind of spray
                   pattern. I think by getting jets for a big cycle rather than the jets for My lil 250cc carbs will make the difference Vic is
                   looking for and possibly Myself. I know by getting the h2o into a smaller "vapor" like these jets do will get Us cooler
                   temps overall as well as a nice rinse for the gals w/o over doing it....automation Baby;) Smell what I'm steppin' in there
                   Soulman? LOL I'll look and report asap, but that doesn't mean anytime really soon sadly. Maybe inna week or so.
                   occam Man that stuff scares the hell out of Me! I never even look at odd or unsolicited emails in fear of the like. I'm just
                   puter-stupid enough to get burned really well playing w/ that kinda fire. I'm wanting/needing a newer puter really bad and
                   would love/need a lil tutorial on that stuff when I do please.
                   ALL BTW You wouldn't know about any used or starter computer systems out there for sale would Ya's? Hell I'd be
                   happy w/ a P2 250 or the like at this point! I got burned onna puter trade just recently leaving Me on this old Compaq
                   486 Deskpro that's been slightly hopped up enough to mess Me up when I want to try something new. I have most of
                   the parts to get a good starter up or take over a "hand Me down" puter that needed a few parts to get it rolling
                   again(soundcard, memory etc). Any pointers or the like folks? TIA


                   TOPIC - NetBus, BO, Dirt
                   DATE - 11:22:46 7/08/99
                   FROM - occam
                   Hi 180, how goes it?
                   Hey Vic, if my "Intro to Computing" instructor from a few years back saw your question about me being a teacher, he'd
                   bust a gut laughing. I am no expert. Much of what I know about computers is gleaned from public information on the
                   That being said, here's a short rundown on "Remote Administration Utilities Designed as a Trojan Horse". (Apologies
                   for inaccuracies or omissions)
                   NetBus is a Trojan, similar to BO, except that it is Windows based; BO will work on Windows, Mac, UNIX, and even
                   Amiga, apparently. The victim has to be fooled into installing the server on his computer, (e-mail attachments,
                   downloaded programs, etc.). The DIRT program sounds like a similar puppie, except that it is designed for LEO's and
                   the like.
                   There are several software programs that detect and/or remove BO, NetBus and NetBus attacks. I was using NetBuster
                   when someone tried it on me here. It's not the best, but it is fun. It makes it appear to the hacker that he has access to
                   your computer files when he doesn't, logs the hackers ISP and what he tries to do, and, if you're lucky, lets you take
                   control of the hackers computer. I've been using NetBus Detective for some time now; it's more effective, but not as
                   much fun as NetBuster.
                   It's a big topic, there's lots of info from more informed sources than me. If anyone wants to add to or correct anything
                   here, go for it. My ego can stand it. ;)


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 11:06:19 7/08/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Thanks Soul. The garden is getting close to 6 weeks and if I was harvesting sinse, I would be cutting the grapefruit and
                   G13 now, they look ready. The blueberry are close and the romulans are no where near. And as luck would have it, the
                   blueberry and romulan are the only "important" seeds in the seed crop. Actually I'm not sure what is up with the
                   romulans and blueberry, some look like 3 and 4 week buds. Maybe my ozone tube is leaking light into the closet
                   through the vent pipe, it's all kinda hacked together, haha.

                   Anyway, I have no desire to flower the C99 for another month or so, I kinda want to get to know them first and allow
                   them to become quite mature. Kinda walking a fine line here trying to maximize seed developement while keepng C99
                   in veg mode.

                   With your heat problems, I feel for you, been there myself in the past. yep I had skimpy buds who's pistals prematurely
                   browned and spongy stalks. The plants also took on a yellow green look. Although, you can normally get away with an
                   inadaquate intake fan, I found them to be very important in helping solve high temp problems. Tonnes of ventilation and
                   as much misting as you can get away with. Down below there is some info on foggers. I didn't find something practical
                   for the hobby grower, but with all the incentive in other parts of North America right now, maybe somebody will come up
                   with somethings. Building a comercial swamp cooler could help some of the hoby growers in this group.


                   TOPIC - Soul,Side Lighting, reflective..
                   DATE - 10:29:13 7/08/99
                   FROM - Blazer
                   SoulMan...Say You Old prick;) How the hell are Ya? Long time no see..not to mention the lack of breaking each others
                   balls a lil now and then;) Good seein Ya
                   Side Lighting I have a 430 hps conversion I use for side lighting all the time, moving it here and there. I don't think the
                   plants get confused nor care which direction the lumens come from as long as they keep on coming IMO. I like the
                   results anyhow.
                   Reflecive paints etc. I use a white marine enamel on My walls to reflect rather than mylar, just seems easier and the
                   gals diggit.
                   Well that's it for now. Another hot Mofo out today, sweat sweat sweat! No rest for the wicked they tell me...I must Be 1
                   wicked bastard;)


                   TOPIC - Feedback to Vic
                   DATE - 09:27:45 7/08/99
                   FROM - Soul
                   Vic_~ You didn't mention how far along the seed crop is. In my experience, you can let them mature during the final
                   two weeks in 18/6 without noticing any negative effects. One other measure I take with seeds is to let them dry in the
                   buds until everything is dry...the seeds get an extra week to mature during the drying process. I choose only seeds
                   with the "skin" on them (the thin coating which contains the stripes or speckles) as being mature. This skin may be
                   rubbed off later through handling, but as long as it was developed - the seed is mature & likely to be viable.

                   By flowering your C99 seedlings at the size you've started them, you'll see more stretching than if they were more
                   mature, but they'll still be quite nice. The bud sites just won't be as "connected" to each other along the main cola.

                   Been experiencing a rather HOT spell in my area, I've noticed some effects of high (90 degrees PLUS) temperatures on
                   an indoor garden:

                   1. Lower yield, skinnier colas.
                   2. Wimpy stalks
                   3. Flowers (pistils) turning brown earlier.

                   Is this what you've noticed too?



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 08:46:53 7/08/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Loop - I'm in a stationary closet setup, so it's hard to get even coverage, therefore some plants are 8" from UV and
                   some are 24". They seem like they are ready for more UV but I'll wait until the seed crop is done. Then I'll add the
                   second UV tube to the other side of the room and start cranking it up again. I'll use it to select the males that survive,

                   Incidently, the C99 seedlings are also in the flower room due to space limitations, and bad weather outside. They are
                   mostly between 7 and eight sets of leaves, and still no preflowers with the exception of one male and one female. They
                   are now at the stage where they have slowed upward growth and are filling out.

                   Say, the seed crop is well seeded now, just immature. I'm not concerned about bud quality, so does anyone know if
                   the seeds (as a whole) will continue to mature if I flip back to 18/6? Worried how long I have before the seedlings start
                   to flip, haha. I know from experience that some will mature, but curious about a whole bud's worth and how it will affect
                   the energy put into maturing the seeds. Soul & NCGA - either of you lurking?

                   seedling pot size - personally. I've never seen a problem with starting seeds in small pots, just transplant before they
                   are rootbound. In fact, I find that the smaller the better. This way you can water more often, reducing the chance that
                   the water in the medium becoming stagnent. I usually use either the 48 hole or 72 hole seedling flats. I average
                   somewhere in the 50/50 ratio of males/females. Keeping the medium with fresh oxygen is equally important for both
                   seedlings and clones, IMHO :)

                   Yes Occam, please explain. I looked at the CGI script and couldn't see any changes, but I'm no expert. One of the
                   advantages to moving here from HBC was my ability to block the IP sniffers or those hackers from planting counters.
                   Also would you be willing to be teacher? I don't even know what a "net bus" attack is or how one would detect it. Not
                   really growing info, but I don't think anyone will throw stones if you are off topic, haha. Thanks bro.

                   180 & george - I too was a little confused about the reflective mulch idea, I just figured it was for outdoor growers. I
                   guess I could see a use for those hydro growers that have to keep their plants spaced the same thoughout the grow.
                   Then it may help speed up the veg grow - where the silver or white would be best. My thoughts were that if it was
                   helping an indoor flower crop, then your canopy wasn't tight enough and you were wasting light.

                   Danbo - woo hoo!! good to hear. Wish I could remeber if you got new stock or old stock.


                   TOPIC - jabba, pot size; occam, details please!
                   DATE - 05:10:55 7/08/99
                   FROM - 180
                   jabba, the size of the pot is less important with clones than with seedlings, because the clones are already at full
                   maturity; they won't be influenced to change sex expression by root constriction.

                   avoid a bare roots situation if you can, it's traumatic to the plant. and btw, i find that it's best to root clones into a fairly
                   neutral medium, i.e. one that has very little nutrient content. perl/verm works but it's very loose. i just use a commercial
                   "seed-starting" mix (peter's professional potting soil and germinating mix), because it retains moisture and holds
                   together during transplant.

                   occam, good to see you :-) please tell us HOW YOU DETECTED the attempted "net bus" exploit against your 'puter,
                   that one gave me the jitters!! i thought our main worries came from trojans, but it sounds like you're saying someone
                   put an IP-sniffer hack on this server, then "followed" you. PLEASE CLARIFY!! TIA

                   george, my tomatoes are going nuts this year, though not as far along as yours. gotta love those sweet 100's! and yes,
                   those studies with the silver mulch are just copying the standard indoor grower's strategy of maximizing reflection. the
                   problem is that most indoor grows don't have the kind of plant spacing that could benefit from this silver mulch strategy,
                   because space and direct light (rather than lower intensity reflected lumens) is usually at a premium. that said, i have
                   heard of more than one hydro table "mulched" with mylar or white plastic...



                   TOPIC - cloning
                   DATE - 01:57:06 7/08/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   jabba--whatever you root the clone in gets transplanted with the clone. Baring the roots will piss yer plant off. I used to
                   clone into once inch r.w. cubes but now use a four inch pot with perilite:sunshine mix 1:1. The clones don't seem to
                   have a preference.

                   Any medium that the plant can stand up in will work. You can use shredded rubber tires if you like. But, yer right,
                   without a nutrient source, you'll have to provide it via the water.


                   TOPIC - cloning
                   DATE - 01:10:09 7/08/99
                   FROM - jabba the hut
                   Hello. When you clone, do you remove the rooted cuttings from the medium with nothing but naked roots and then
                   transplant, or do you simply transplant the clone and rooting medium into soil/larger pot? This is one little factor that
                   never gets talked about in much detail. I'm sure that it varies from medium to medium, but I would like to know for both
                   rockwool, and separately, a 50/50 perlite vermic. mix.
                   With the perlite/verm mix, I thought it would be better to simply let the clone fill the pot (using 4 inches tall, 3 inches
                   wide plastic pots) with roots and then transplant just like with a normal plant. So long as it is fertilized adequately, the
                   perlite/verm mix is a suitable propagating medium, is it not? I mean, why tip the pot up soon after the cutting has
                   sprouted roots, shake the soil off the clone and then risk damaging the fragile roots by putting the naked roots directly
                   into a new medium? Do you know what I'm getting at?
                   Budm spoke of his method of cloning with 4" rockwool cubes with 4 cuttings in each, then taking the newly rooted
                   clones out and transplanting. But wouldn't it be less stressful for the clones to use 1 clone per cube, wait until the roots
                   have filled up the cube and have protruded through the cubes base and then transplant?
                   Also, we have been warned about using too small containers for propagating seedlings due to the high incidence of
                   males, but a clone, being an exact genotypic replicate of its parent, wouldn't be affected by having such a small
                   container to start off in? So therefore wouldn't you say that a small container (less than 4" high) would be better than a
                   larger container for rooting cuttings? That way the clone would fill the container with roots sooner, allowing quicker
                   transplanting to a more suitable medium for seedling/vegetative growth.
                   If all these questions could be answered, it wouold help me greatly.


                   TOPIC - Rommberry!
                   DATE - 17:42:23 7/07/99
                   FROM - Danbo
                   Vic, the Rommberry has broken 5 feet. I'll be shooting
                   some photos in the next weeks and send one to you. It
                   really seems to love the Cali sun.


                   TOPIC - Reflections on Reflective Mulch ...
                   DATE - 15:57:00 7/07/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   Upon further review, we might want to consider some of the info. that's been posted around the web on the subject of
                   side-lighting. There have been some who have said that it's not a good idea to use lights from the side during indoor
                   growing since it might "confuse" the plants and retard their growth & development. Indoor growing is not an area of my
                   greatest expertice, but I suspect that some strains might not behave well with reflective mulch, while others might show
                   great improvement.

                   In theory, those using flourescent bulbs would have the most to gain, especially in a SOG program. In a MH or HSP
                   situation, strips of mylar between plants could both reflect light and keep the soil cool, prevening rapid evaporation, and
                   reducing water consumption. In theory.

                   On the other hand, flat white paint is a great reflector, and strips of double weight bathroom tissue could be used to get
                   much of the same effect ( and then disgarded, after every watering ).

                   In a big grow situation, the results might depend on how big the plants are, and how thick the canopy of foliage. If the
                   light isn't penetrating much, it might not be worth the hassle.

                   Loop: First read about the red reflective mulch trick for tomatos last year, but never tried it. All my veggies are in 5 gal.
                   buckets and the foliage of the tomatos completely covers the tops of all their containers. Can't imagive getting much
                   better yield out of them given the hight heat and small containers. Some are getting too big for their cages now, the fruit
                   so heavy that it leans the cages over. ( Soft soil in the buckets lets the plants grow, but it doesn't hold the cages firmly
                   enough to hold a big load. Some can be lashed to a fence, but the rest are just pushed out of the way. )


                   TOPIC - Bill..
                   DATE - 15:28:55 7/07/99
                   FROM - chronic man
                   LEO-Law Enforcement officer, nothing unique to the U.S., just cops in general. LOL- laugh out loud, ROFL-Rolling On
                   Floor Laughing, then theres SOG-Sea of green, SCROG-Screen of green, and others that I cant think of right now. It's
                   funny how these little abbreviations come about...
                   NFM...(no further message, no friggin more, whatever)
                   cHrOnIc man



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 12:46:47 7/07/99
                   FROM - loop
                   OT1-thanks for the info regarding MH bulbs. Think I'll spring for the HQI-T. Exploding bulbs in my room is definitely a
                   bad things.

                   Vic-how far are your UV-b bulbs from the plants. What area are you covering with each bulb?
                   RE: dirt. There is an anti Trojan program called net buster but I don't know if it does the DIRT thing.

                   Chronic man: I don't expect to get an increase in yield using a water-cooled lamp vs. an uncooled lamp. Actually I
                   expect that in direct comparison (bulb per bulb) my yield to decrease about 20% due to the light losses from the water
                   jacket. I'm my situation it would be impossible to grow in the summer (ambient air temps around 80+) so you can say
                   whatever I can grow now is an increase in yield over nothing (quite a large increase). There're definitely not for everyone
                   but I love them and will never go back. Different strokesÖ.

                   Bill- LEO = law enforcement officer. LOL =laughing out loud

                   Curious George - I read in The Growing Edge (July/august 98) that tomato farmers were using a red mulch to increase
                   yield. The red reflected light makes the plant believe its being crowded and puts all its energy above ground. It also
                   reduced nematodes a great deal.



                   TOPIC - dirt
                   DATE - 12:13:50 7/07/99
                   FROM - occam
                   Good call Vic. Check out this from the companies page: www.codex.com
                   >>DIRT operates surreptitiously like a Trojan Horse. It is transmitted secretly to a target via email in several ways:
                   either as a proprietary protocol, self extracting executable, dummy segment fault, hidden ZIP file, application specific
                   weakness, macro, a steganographic attachment or other methods the companyís technical wizard, Eric Schneider will
                   not divulge.<<
                   To not open e-mail attachments is good advice.
                   BTW, someone tried a Netbus hack on me (similar to Back orifice)while accessing this site a month or two ago; there
                   ain't no place totally safe on the 'net.


                   TOPIC - What is LEO
                   DATE - 11:21:12 7/07/99
                   FROM - Bill
                   Been enjoying yer board for a while but still can't figure what LEO stands for. Seems like Canada's version of our DEA.
                   Also Irish and Blaze like to us LOL. Can't get that one either. One more question (while things are slow), when looking
                   thru the archives some posts mention links but there is no URL. Do they get dropped some how when archiving? TIA
                   (I figured some of 'em out)


                   TOPIC - Diff platforms
                   DATE - 10:46:12 7/07/99
                   FROM - ju_ce71
                   Greetings Vic, I hope you are enjoying good health and peace
                   of mind. You felled to mention the obvious choice for
                   platform which is mac. i am certified microsoft
                   professional and make a big part of my earnings fixing
                   windoze(thank goodnees for bad software or i would be out of
                   a gig) My personal platform and the one i recommend to all
                   my (none business)friends is macOS. Linux is cool if you
                   feel like geeking on the computer, but the your computer
                   should work like your toaster,or TV both of which you use
                   without any thought of whats going on inside. I don't want
                   to start platform wars(people get worked up about the
                   platform they use like it's penis size or something) but
                   even Big Bill as in Gates has said on many occasions that
                   the MacOS is head and shoulders above other OS's in terms of
                   secruity and usablity. Since you have some time run into a
                   local CompUSA(hey I'm sorry for the costomer service you'll
                   get) and check out a G3 powerbook or Desktop running 8.51 or
                   8.6...go with an open mind, and even if you don't change
                   platforms it will give somethin


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 08:38:32 7/07/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   hey, we have some quiet time in here, it must be summer, haha, I hope all are doing well.

                   Maybe it is a good time to think about security, since there isn't any other hop topics on the table right now. A friend
                   recently shared the following links with me:

                   - About a program called dirt http://www.pcworld.com/pcwtoday/article/0,1510,11614,00.html

                   - About cell phone tracking http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/20504.html

                   The first one was the most alarming. I've recently been sniffing around parts of the internet underworld that I could gain
                   access. I learned more about a program called Back Oriface that would allow a hacker to gain control of your PC
                   without you knowing it. You would let them in by opening an email or ICQ attatchment. This is the main reason that
                   you should NEVER open attatched files, even from friends. I always thought that Back Oriface was THE program, but it
                   turns out it is just a clone of the real deal called DIRT. DIRT is a major weapon of LEO or cybercops. Read the article,
                   it's enlightening. Now the question is, is there a way yet to detect this on your PC? Apparentl, even though it is like a
                   virus, it's immune to virus checkers because LEO has been successful in keeping it under lock and key. If anyone has
                   any info, myself and many others would be grateful.

                   I did notice that both Back Oriface and Dirt require that your PC be a windows based PC. Is it time for a revolution in
                   operating systems? Would it be enough to have a dual boot system and only surf after booting from Linux or OS2?
                   Another option is to reformat your hardrive on a regular basis. This can be messy though unless you know what you
                   are doing. Any ideas? Recommendations? Additions?


                   TOPIC - curious george-ny times article
                   DATE - 08:20:29 7/07/99
                   FROM - flwr smkr
                   EXCELLANT POST!
                   best information since mr soul's pre-flowers at wb.
                   definately worth trying for ourselves.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 14:14:12 7/06/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Curious George - great article, thanks!!

                   Susan - I don't know of anyone who uses GA as a regular treatment on cannabis, and not sure why one would want to.
                   If overdone, it can cause hermies. You also didn't mention the form of GA it is or what concentration it is. But forget all
                   that, if you want to use it, why not just follow the directions on the label?



                   TOPIC - An interesting article in The NY Times :
                   DATE - 12:42:49 7/06/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   Silver Mulch Linked to More Robust Plants

                   By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

                   ARLIER, Calif. -- Anyone walking along a small plot of tomato plants at the University of California's Kearney
                   Agricultural Center
                   here in the San Joaquin Valley can easily spot which ones were planted in a silver-colored plastic mulch system.

                   Those tomato bushes are noticeably bigger and have more fruit than those planted on bare soil.
                   The plastic mulch system being studied by researchers at the center is nothing fancy -- a long plastic sheet that
                   covers the rows where the tomatoes are planted -- and the idea of
                   using plastic to cover the ground has been around for a while.

                   What is new is using silver-colored plastic that reflects sunlight.

                   In areas where temperatures dip very low, growers have used black plastic
                   mulch to keep the soil warm at night. The mulch also helps prevent soil erosion while keeping the ground moist longer
                   by reducing the amount of water evaporating during the day.

                   The silver-colored reflective plastic mulch helps the crops and the soil in similar ways, but has an additional benefit.

                   "Silver mulch increases light to the plant canopy," said Jim Stapleton, an integrated pest management plant
                   pathologist at the center. "That basically translates into more photosynthesis and increased growth of the plant."

                   The plastic also reflects ultraviolet light, which repels insects like the aphids that carry devastating diseases.

                   "If the insects can't land, they can't transmit diseases," said a university entomologist, Charlie Summers. "Many of
                   these diseases are transmitted in seconds. That's why a lot of insecticides don't work against them."

                   Although further tests are scheduled, the preliminary results from other
                   vegetables are promising.
                   With pumpkins, the researchers found virtually no silverleaf whitefly
                   infestation on a plot with the reflective plastic after a week of planting. But nearly 40 percent of the crop without the
                   plastic was infected in the same period.

                   After three weeks, less than 1 percent was infected in the reflective system, while nearly 70 percent was infected on
                   crops planted in the bare ground.

                   Similar results were found with cucumbers, zucchinis, squash, cantaloupes,
                   eggplants, broccoli and sweet corn.

                   Because of the decrease in the amount of crops lost to diseases and the increase in production because of better
                   photosynthesis, the researchers found yields in cucumbers went up substantially: 6 pounds per plot versus 60 pounds
                   per plot.

                   "I'm not sure why more people don't do it," said Mike Satterstrom, a local pumpkin farmer who agreed to participate in
                   the research two years ago. "What we've seen is that the leaf of the plant gets 50 percent to 60 percent bigger. The
                   leaves are stronger."

                   Satterstrom, 49, said his yields had risen by more than 50 percent. "It's partly because you don't have the bug problem
                   anymore," Satterstrom said. "We don't use much in the way of pesticides anymore."


                   TOPIC - GIBBERELLIC ACID
                   DATE - 12:39:19 7/06/99
                   FROM - susan

                   GIBBERELLIC ACID Please help me with the doze (ppm)
                   for vegative + blowsom for sprayed on the plant
                   the name on the product is pro gib
                   i found in australia on this adress http://www.ozemail.com.au/~cjparker/index.html
                   price 55 AUD for 100 ml pure
                   send world wide



                   TOPIC - GIBBERELLIC ACID
                   DATE - 12:35:10 7/06/99
                   FROM - susan
                   GIBBERELLIC ACID
                   Please help me with the doze (ppm)
                   for vegative + blowsom for sprayed on the plant
                   the name on the product is pro gib
                   i found in australia on this adress http://www.ozemail.com.au/~cjparker/index.html
                   price 55 AUD for 100 ml pure
                   send world wide



                   TOPIC - flowering
                   DATE - 01:50:05 7/06/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   buddin--Keep with the 12/12 as long as yer flowering. You can harvest a bud at a time if you wish. Sometimes I'll
                   harvest the top of a plant, raise the remainder up and let it go another couple weeks to let the bottom fill out--but don't
                   do this if you plan to re-veg the plant.


                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 18:07:57 7/05/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Budm - where you don't have the luxery of a suncircle to combine the spectrums of different lamps, then I think either
                   the sunmaster warm deluxe MH or the hortilux HPS would be your best bet for a single bulb for flowering. Literature
                   shows that the sunmaster would be the better choice, but side by side comparisons are still inconclusive, yield/quality
                   wise. Personally, I'm using the sunmaster because it keeps the plants healthier. For just straight veg, I think super
                   charging a cheap MH would give you the most bang for your buck.


                   TOPIC - Free Anon ISP Etc
                   DATE - 12:28:33 7/05/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi All, I found a service that offers free Internet access, and you can sign up anon. The catch is they have a constant
                   banner ad on the screen, other then that the service is fine, fast setup, throughput speed is great, no conflicts with
                   proxies. Check it out at www.netzero.com, they have service avaiable nationwide.

                   Vic-Do you think the Sunmaster bulbs are worth the extra money? TIA.



                   TOPIC - flowering
                   DATE - 09:13:49 7/05/99
                   FROM - buddin
                   have a white widow in phototron lite with fluorescents, four phillips sl-18s in the top and has been in flowering for 5
                   weeks(12 on 12 off). profile of strain from seed bank says to flower for at least 8 weeks. about 10% of hairs are turning
                   red. tron instructions say at this point go to 24 hours light until ready to harvest. read elsewhere to wait until 75 to 80%
                   red hairs. please help with correct light change and when to harvest. do you cut some buds before others? some
                   smaller ones have more red hairs. also after harvesting can i cut main stem back to about 6 to 8 inches without killing
                   plant. main stem now pulled over with top cola.


                   TOPIC - Thanks
                   DATE - 17:42:08 7/04/99
                   FROM - SmackDaddy AKA Indoor Man
                   Well Blazer maybe I'm on the right track at last. I have had some good luck so far outside this year with a fertilizer
                   called OSMOCOTE, it is a 9 month time release fert if any one wanted to try it. Peace be with you guys.
                   Indoor Man. ( someone said my old name made him think he was talking to a heroin user, BLAAAAAH )


                   TOPIC - Dormancy during leaf curl
                   DATE - 10:14:06 7/04/99
                   FROM - Bud Bundy
                   I recently found out that I indeed was over watering some of the romberry surprises...I was watering all of them 2 times
                   a week, on schedule. About 3 1/2 weeks ago, after a few (mostly indica-prevalent) started the "leaf curl," (Day 30 of
                   flower) I scrambled to figure out what the hell was going on to them. I tested the soil, ph was 6.5, n was low, p was
                   normal, k was just a hair over normal. Everyone kept telling me that leaf curl was from over ferting, but my numbers
                   didn't indicate I was doing that, or over watering, which I certainly didn't think I was doing only watering twice a week in
                   3 gal containers.

                   I went on for 2 more weeks, watering twice a week on schedule, no ferts or anything. I noticed that most of them were
                   not growing at all and were completely dormant, for 2 WEEKS. We are approacing crunch time here now (Day 45!!!!),
                   so I added 1 teaspoon of dolomite lime to the surface of each one and watered them thoroughly. I stopped watering on
                   schedule and waited for each one to wilt alittle and beg me for more water.

                   Each have recieved 2 "leaching" waters after showing alittle wilting since then. Now, at day 55 they all have alot of new
                   growth coming from the main cola mostly, and some on the side branches. After looking at them with the 30x scope, I
                   see that only some of the trichomes are just starting to get opague. All the leaf curl victims are starting to look very
                   happy. I concluded that I was definitely over watering them...they need water every 5-6 days, not every 3-4 days. That
                   little change made a huge difference. Just a side note here, the sativa-dominant versions need water every 3-4 days, so
                   I'm watering all the time and its a pain in the ass!

                   Now here's my question (s)...When they go into dormancy like that and get rehabilitated back to good health, does the
                   flower cycle continue on normal schedule, or is it like a "time-freeze" where they kind of pick up where they left off? In
                   other words, do you think they will finish on time, or will they go another 2-3 weeks to make up for lost time? Is it also
                   a possibility that the ph was too low and the lime corrected that?


                   TOPIC - budm, 400w for veg
                   DATE - 05:14:45 7/04/99
                   FROM - blight
                   budm, if you just use it to veg clones, you can get away with using a cheap (non-horticultural) phillips 400MH, which
                   will cost under $40 US. it has the blue spectrum that will keep clones from stretching. the difference between this
                   "cheap" halide and the fancy expensive ones ($70-100 US) is it is not quite as bright and doesn't have any added red
                   spectra (which might tend to make clones stretch a bit, anyway). oh, and it doesn't have the fancy name or hype,
                   either...these lamps are available at Home DePot.


                   TOPIC - GIBBERELLIC ACID
                   DATE - 04:17:57 7/04/99
                   FROM - Susan
                   Please help me with the doze (ppm)
                   for vegative + blowsom for sprayed on the plant
                   the name on the product is pro gib
                   i found in australia on this adress http://www.ozemail.com.au/~cjparker/index.html
                   price 55 AUD for 100 ml pure
                   send world wide



                   TOPIC - NUGRO
                   DATE - 23:09:44 7/03/99
                   FROM - trelaway
                   Dunno what you mean about safety. I'm assuming yer wondering if you can get busted via this board. Not likely tho
                   logging on here will produce and IP number thats tracable to yer server etc. But....there's no law against exchanging

                   Sixty plants in BC will likely get you fines and a conviction but, if yer concerned, why not cough the hundred bucks and
                   consult a local lawyer--anon of course.

                   Most people who get busted get ratted by someone they know, like an ex.


                   TOPIC - Bulb choices
                   DATE - 19:18:07 7/03/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi All, Af had a accident, that will have him buying a new 400mh bulb, after the weekend, the lamp was the second in
                   the flower closet, but hes going to repalce the veg closets lamp, and move the other into the flower area.
                   The question is with all of the new choices in bulbs, for a veg only situation, what is the choice if you had to buy a new
                   bulb? Vic I know theres been much dissucion here in the past with Orchid Man, about the Osram and Sunmaster, just
                   looking for folks .02cents. Thanks in advance & a good weekend and holiday to all;-)



                   TOPIC - Thanks 180, it's time to feed 'em ...
                   DATE - 14:19:58 7/03/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   Thanks for the silica - Potasium tip. It's about time to fertilize the containers for the first time this season. The horrid
                   heat and humidity have just hit, and they all have to be watered Every morning. Since they are all producing, and are
                   stressed, this is the time to give them a little extra. So, this evening I'll be giving them a shot of fish-emulsion and liquid
                   seaweed diluted at the regular dosage in some aerated water. The seaweed willl have to substitute for kelp at this point
                   ... the powdered kelp I've seen locally was much too expensive.

                   The "Sweet 100's" cherry tomatos are putting out as usual, and it's a joy to go out in the AM and pop 1/2 dozen in your
                   mouth with a sprig of Sorel or Basil on top. It's a godamn primitive feeling ... very basic ... "hunter gatherer" stuff ... taps
                   into some basic stuff in the psyche ... .

                   Still plan to try the citric acid/ brown sugar trick. Maybe next week I'll have a chance to gather the ingredients.

                   Have a great weekend!


                   TOPIC - Your thoughts on a CO2 setup
                   DATE - 10:55:30 7/03/99
                   FROM - Nugro
                   Hi all,

                   Question 1

                   I wanted to enrich the garden CO2 levels so i connected a photocell
                   to a 1 minute every 10 minutes timer to inject CO2 into the room. Is ti making any sense? Nozzles of CO2 are bhind
                   the fans aimed at the plants..

                   Question 2

                   How safe is this board?

                   Question 3

                   Anyone has an i idea on the current penalties in BC for growing say 60 plants?




                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 10:30:45 7/03/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   loop I haven't used a metal halide with an internal igniter for years and to my knowledge replacement lamps for those
                   old type of ballasts haven't been available here for well over 10 years. Even if they were available really cheaply I
                   wouldn't use them I seem to remember they were for vertical use only [ i could be wrong about that?] which means you
                   only get 50 to 60% of the produced light on the plants which means 13 to 15 KL after the first 100 hrs. This type of
                   lamp was superseded by the HPI-T horizontal which is run off its own ballast with the igniter in the ballast box which
                   with a good reflector will get nearly 28 KL on to the plants after 100 hrs the equivalent to two of the old internal igniter
                   type for your 400 W. The HPI-T type will run on a 400 W sodium giving more light [ about 30 KL ] but has a couple of
                   disadvantages the extra current used reduces the lamp life by 25% and at about 4000 hrs + a significant amount
                   explode increasing the risk of fire. I've had it happen, I was luckily not in the room at the time, the white hot quartz
                   made neat holes through the leaves and mylar curtains plus burnt some pits in the floor boards. The latest version of
                   the HQI-T lamp gets over 40 KL on the plants I believe there are some coming soon that will out perform the son t plus
                   for lumen out put. I have had the HPI-T and the HQI-T side by side in the same grow space there is no comparison
                   between them, the plants under the HPI-T lean over towards the HQI-T, you can just see the difference in luminosity.
                   We also got a 20% + yield increase changing over and denser more potent bud. I'm sorry I cant give you a direct
                   comparison but I reckon they are well worth the extra cost.

                   I hope this helps a little. Ot1


                   TOPIC - water cooled lights
                   DATE - 10:29:37 7/03/99
                   FROM - chronic man
                   Loop-yea I did use the cutoff switches, but the lights never got hot enough to shut off, just hot enough to melt the
                   lense. (go figure) I probably could have searched for a swamp cooler, but here in Washington, the selection isn't all that
                   great. Plus I wasn't too excited about the extra
                   cash involved in buying the cooler, along with the cost of the electricity to run it. Overall, they were just more trouble
                   than they were worth. I did one full crop, and didn't notice any gain in yield. In my opinion, they are just another gadget
                   for us to play with.
                   Again just my $.02

                   Also, I was wondering, is it a good idea to use sugar during the last two weeks?? I wouldn't think that sugar would do
                   anything to the taste in the final product. I've heard people say that they use it during clearing, and also before clearing.
                   I'm wondering which it should be....
                   cHrOnIc man


                   TOPIC - stuff
                   DATE - 00:04:13 7/03/99
                   FROM - loop
                   Chronic man- all the agri-cool have a safety temperature switch that turn your lights off at 125*f.
                   Didnít you use it?

                   Re nitrogen in flowering: Iíve always shifted my nutes from veg to flower slowly after switching but because of such
                   rapid growth with the aero/ high light level situation I didnít want the plant to grow to much (tall) even though they were
                   put in to flower immediately. I really want them to finish under 20î and over 30 grams. I thought that maybe a
                   transitional formula might allow for good root development while somewhat limiting vegetative growth. Donít know, that
                   why Iím asking ;-).

                   180- great album, one of my faveís. Covers almost all his styles.

                   Re- water-cooled lights. I always said that people should grow in a style that is consistent with their personality
                   (although it might be hard to grow drunk and obnoxious). I figure if you couldnít hook up a new kitchen sink from
                   scratch you shouldnít play with water-cooled lights.

                   OT1- if you donít mind, could you please explain the difference (in your experience) between using a MH in a HPS
                   ballast without igniter and using a HQIT with. The HQIT are quite expensive around here.

                   Pi- although I am slightly wasted right now, I donít think I can ever read one of Vicís posts with out seeing AP.
                   Romberryyy ba bayÖLOL.

                   Irish. -No need to apologize, your reasoning makes perfect sense (to me anyway; but donít forget, I am wasted:).
                   Thatís what so great about this hobby, always full of surprises and experience beats theory every time.



                   TOPIC - schedule again...
                   DATE - 22:05:31 7/02/99
                   FROM - irish
                   hey vic,
                   the reason i was asking (my mind has been very scattered lately) was just to clarify why and what was expected of
                   this experiment. it just seemed to me that you were adding days, and the simple (untried, untrue LOL) logic, that my
                   mind sometimes is capable of, said... it would add time at a day a week to a normal schedule. i thought this was a
                   yield trick. i guess that is what sparked my first post. remember i am a guppie in this pool of knowledge most of the
                   time, and i need that extra helping hand. (simple minds need simple answers.)
                   i think i just need to go back into the archives, maybe something i missed.


                   TOPIC - vic/ 180
                   DATE - 20:19:40 7/02/99
                   FROM - pi
                   vic ,,, i have you pictured in my minds eye as ... am
                   Austin Powers look-a-like hehehe. the grower who got shagged. Romnberryyyyyyyyyy Baby

                   180... re the N ... that maybe a good reason to use the maxicrop with every watering through harvest as it has the trace
                   elements AND a slight amount of N.


                   TOPIC - greenbear, curious george, vic, blazer/loop
                   DATE - 17:59:11 7/02/99
                   FROM - 180
                   greenbear, how are you my man?! good to see you drop by :-)

                   genius is a fast flowerer. she really is finished (max flavor + potency ) by 50 days, though i think you could take her
                   longer to see if she would put on more weight. the bud is so nice, you just want more of it ;-)

                   george, silica and potassium might address your problem, as they both contribute to stem strength like calcium does.
                   there are commercial supplements that provide a silica boost, such as pyroclay, and dyna-gro's "Pro-TeKt"
                   silica-potassium supplement for hydro. a shot of silica makes the plants "stand at attention", the most amazing leaf
                   of course a good organic fert program should make them do that too. one organic fert that might really fire up the stem
                   growth and presentation would be kelp (K and growth hormones plus micros). of course, this would need to be
                   balanced with a higher-P fish fert, to insure good blossom set and fruiting...and so on, hehehe.
                   your "problem" of heavy fruit at this point should make for a nice long summer of harvesting tasty veggies! too bad for
                   you, huh? ;-)
                   in reply to your question, i don't think the plants "care" if the fruit is on the ground, since they are just trying to make
                   seeds and propagate their genes. WE care because we are their helpers (in spreading the seeds) and we exact a price
                   for our service: we want delicious produce!
                   btw, i like to use stakes to spread my container tomatoes into a big conical "bush" made of several plants. stakes and
                   trellises are the key to getting lots of healthy plants in a small space (plus a swig or 3 of smelly fish ferts and kelp juice

                   vic, i don't know if misting would do the same trick with the powdery mildew, unless it was heavy and/or frequent
                   enough to rinse the leaves thoroughly. i think the reason your rain-washed plants did so well was because they were
                   literally WASHED, which is quite disruptive to the PM's lifestyle.
                   lady j has mentioned dealing with mites in a similar way, with strong air circulation that disrupts their activities (tornado
                   effect ;-). strong air circulation plus frequent dousings with water (hurricane effect, yahoo!) would probably correct many
                   of the problems we experience indoors.
                   but it "might" create a few other problems, hehe.
                   btw, yeah, both uv exposure and ozone (uv by-product) will control spore-borne problems like powdery mildew, pythium,
                   botrytis, etc.

                   hey, i thought purpling of previously green stems was indicative of N-deficiency. the plant scavenges N, which is fairly
                   "transportable", and moves it from older parts to newer parts.
                   this is definitely different however, from some plants' NATURAL tendency to have purple or reddish petioles (leaf
                   when i have seen P-deficiency, it seemed to make leaves darker and duller-looking, not bright or deep green.

                   blazer, i have often tooted the nitrogen-in-flowering horn in the past, maybe it was one of my rants you were thinking of.
                   it goes like this: conventional wisdom says, "plants need lots of P for flowering, so let's jack up the P and get some
                   major buddage (duuudes)".
                   the problem with that is, for uptake of P, plants also need access to plenty of N! if you just jack up the P, the plant
                   drops all its fan leaves and finishes early with a small yield. umm...oops!
                   so the key is to keep the N levels high enough to support good flowering (P-uptake), but not so high that the plant is
                   producing excessive vegetative growth. for a 7-week plant, this has meant giving the plant high N + high P for the first
                   few weeks, then gradually lowering the N starting about the 3rd or 4th week while keeping the P fairly high until growth
                   slows and clearing needs to begin.

                   hey loop, i'm an occasional tom waits fan, is this a good 'un?




                   TOPIC - more observations
                   DATE - 10:52:10 7/02/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   irish - just read my responce to you and clarify. I apreciate your thoughts and the time you took to expand on them. I
                   could easily be wrong and the previous shortening of the flower cycle could have been attributed to something else like
                   CO2 supplimentation or temps. My argument against was pure speculation, didn't want you to think I was saying you
                   were wrong, just presenting conflicting ideas :)

                   Lady J - some time ago we were chatting about powdery mildew and I recommended against reducing the humidity. I
                   knew this was counter intuitive but wasn't able to back it up. I finally realized where I got that from, haha. On my
                   balcony, I have several native plants in pots including columbine flowering red current, both of which are very prone to
                   powdery mildew. Well the plants exposed to the rain are free of the mildew and really healthy. The plants undercover,
                   but with an equal sunshine, are covered with mildew and not happy. The only difference is the constant rain. Regular
                   misting may be a good way to control the powdery mildew. I knowe this doesn't help much later in flowering, but just
                   thought I would pass it along.

                   More mildew - since I noticed my original blueberries are mildew resistant, I've decided to simply control it and not
                   actually irradicate it. (mites weren't so lucky, haha). This is to help me select seedlings that naturally appear to be
                   resistant. Anyway, I've also been noticing that the UV-B seems to be keeping the mildew in check, for what it's worth.


                   TOPIC - Too Much - Too Soon
                   DATE - 10:14:34 7/02/99
                   FROM - Curious George
                   Here's a question that could aply to both veggies and herbs : What is happening when the fruiting portions of a plant
                   grow so large that they bend the stalk or branch downward?

                   Is it just that the soil in the containers is too loose? Or is there too little Calcium in the mix? The stalks should be
                   strong since they've been outdoors, and get plenty of breezes and wind stress.

                   We're used to this with tomatos, and have them in cages from the start, but the peppers ( Cal. Wonder, Anahiem, &
                   Gypsy ) have gotten so big with fruit that they are leaning Waaay over and will probably have to be caged or tied-up.

                   Do plants allocate their energy to fruiting at the expence of structural integrity? If so, how do the commercial strains of
                   veggies, that are grown for cash crops, hold together in the field?

                   Is there something lacking in the soil besides a good anchorage?


                   TOPIC - 16/12 days
                   DATE - 07:10:11 7/02/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   irish - actually in the past it had the opposite effect. With the 10K setup (25-30w/ft) it effectively shrank the flower
                   period from 10 weeks to 9 weeks. I think I still used as much electricity but there was a savings in time. I don't think
                   plants count the number of days/nights in their ripening process, or at least not entirely. I think accumulated lumens
                   play a role. At least this is how I explain the peruvian sativa never really getting around to ripening in the lower light
                   garden. Because of the mixed up schedule, they have been drought stressed more than once. I figure this would me
                   affecting their progress ;-)

                   old hand - your right bud, those leaves didn't recover, the plants just grew past that and new growth is fine.


                   TOPIC - thanks vic!!
                   DATE - 05:38:55 7/02/99
                   FROM - anon
                   good to know your grapefruit have purple stems too... i wouldn't want to screw up the ladies by trying to fix a deficiency
                   that isn't real. thanks again!!


                   TOPIC - water cooled lights
                   DATE - 01:08:05 7/02/99
                   FROM - chronic man
                   Wadsworth- The water cooled lights work great as long as you can efficiently cool the water. If the water isn't kept
                   cool enough, the lense will melt. It happened to me. I was using tap water, but it was getting expensive. I suppose if
                   your water is unmetered or cheap, then that would work. After trying the tap water method, I tried changing the water in
                   the reservoir when it got too hot. Well, it got too
                   hot, and a lense melted. Not all of it, just a bubble. But it was enough to make it leak. I have to say that they really do
                   lower the temperature, and the plants can actually touch the lense without burning. I had the Agri-cool pro series lights,
                   and Agri-cool does sell a swamp cooler, but it's about 2 grand. I'm sure you could find something cheaper though. They
                   weren't for me, seemed like I was always screwing with the damn things, and in my opinion, soil and regular halides
                   are the easiest. I've tried aero, and man aero and water cooled lights, that would be a part time job...hehe
                   Just my 0.2
                   cHrOnIc man


                   TOPIC - vic schedule
                   DATE - 23:05:46 7/01/99
                   FROM - irish
                   hey vic,
                   with that schedule you WILL be expecting a longer time, or find yourself behind. basically you are changing the seven
                   week flower time to an eight week. sounds like it is for yield more than quickness, is that right? you will be getting a
                   six day week, but at the cost of a day per week. the plant will still be set on a normal schedule time wise (hours per
                   day/night, days to flower/ripen, correct?)
                   forty nine day flower is actually fiftyfour your way, but energy stored during the daytime sched will pump the
                   flower/yield:days ratio side correct?


                   TOPIC - clone answers for nada
                   DATE - 21:27:42 7/01/99
                   FROM - old hand
                   past experiences with clones from indoor hermies is that you will most likely not have a hermie outside.indoor
                   conditions tend to create hermies from normal plants, once outside they stay there true sex.a few male flowers on a
                   plant inside is nothing to worry about.a true hermie will have male flowers all over the plant or whole limbs male.planting
                   those seeds is a good way to get a real hermie,not that they wont be potent.clones outside will not be identical to
                   inside plant,genetically yes physically no.same buzz only more better,unless you have deplorable growing conditions.
                   vic sounds like an accurate discription of uv burn, leaves dont recover



                   TOPIC - water cooled lights
                   DATE - 20:25:37 7/01/99
                   FROM - Wadsworth
                   Has anyone out there tried water cooled lights?
                   I've seen a 1000w hps system locally but the store made it seem complecated to use. The brand I'm most interested in
                   is Agri-cool. They also make a 430w hps system. Does anyone know of a mail order place that does carry these?


                   TOPIC - OT1&Vic, looper
                   DATE - 19:03:11 7/01/99
                   FROM - Blazer
                   Thanks for the skinny fellas;) Always wondering about trying something new, it's becoming an illness according to the
                   wife and a few buddies that won't get off My back for more...LOL A guy could have bigger problems I'm sure. hehehe
                   *looper Personally, I don't switch from veg. food to bloom food until I see flowers beginning to cluster some, 1 flower
                   seems a lil too soon to Me. I've read something I can't remember that backs this up well , but can't remember shit at
                   the moment. LOL It works well for me while others switch food w/ the timers...Go figure, My 2 cents anyhoo
                   G'night Folks, Blaze


                   TOPIC - lighting
                   DATE - 18:06:20 7/01/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Hey Budm, forgot that part of the update, haha. I am flowering using a 7 day timer set on a 16 hour on, 12 hour off
                   period, thus effectively creating a 6 day week. To be honest it has been a pain in the ass with my current setup. The
                   window for watering changes daily making it difficult to plan. It would be better if it was setup on timed irrigation I
                   suppose. I don't seem to be noticing the benefit of the longer days that I experienced with the larger garden, in fact, I
                   think this garden is behind schedule. This has been a huge adjustment moving to the closet setup, forgot how spoiled I
                   was with the suncircles.

                   Oh the other change is with the veg room. I was having trouble keeping the grapefruit and chemo clones in the veg
                   state while under 24 hour lighting. Doesn't really make sense, but I speculated that a short dark period was needed to
                   tell these two how long the days were or something like that. I also wanted to reduce growth without suddenly going
                   overboard with a long dark period, so I set the veg timer to 9 hours on and 3 hours off. This effectively has the same
                   growth potential of a 18/6 schedule with only having a three hour dark period. I planned on slowly increasing the dark
                   period to 6/6 but everything is healthy and the grapefruit and chemo are back to veg growth so decided not to fix what
                   wasn't broken.


                   TOPIC - uv
                   DATE - 15:57:10 7/01/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1
                   Blazer the main benefit from using uvb is in breeding for more potency the best effect come from breeding from each
                   generation down the line and reselecting. Just crossing selected Male and Fems for a seed crop will make a small
                   improvements in the complexity of the thc produced. But not the serious genetic adaption that happens over several
                   generations of line breeding. By stressing each seed generation with more uv the ones that cope the best and can
                   produce viable seed will also be the most potent. [thc is one of the best natural uv filter known to man]
                   Adding supplementary uv to an ordinary grow room will allow each plant to produce its best potential potency but wont
                   change the genetics of the mother or her clones. As I've mentioned before the most change is noticed in plants having
                   more sativa in their genes and to a lesser extent with more indica in the make up. I suspect this is because many
                   more generations of indicas have been bred indoors under just sodium lighting especially during flowering which is the
                   worst possible scenario. Cannabis adapts to changing environments faster than virtually any other plant and no plant is
                   going to waste energy making any thing it doesn't need to to reproduce. ie less or no short wave radiation why waste
                   energy producing complex sun block to protect that vital embryo. I've mentioned this all before here and some have poo
                   pooed the ideas, I don't know exactly what Vic is doing but it looks like a step in the right direction I know nc has done
                   some work that way with positive results and Nevil for Greenhouse as well. The adaption of cannabis to the environment
                   is so well documented historically that it is amazing that so few seem to know about it. I hope this fills a few gaps and
                   encourages future breeders to look to some of the past mistakes especially made by the Dutch breeders.
                   All the best Ot1


                   TOPIC - Genuis flowering time?
                   DATE - 15:43:55 7/01/99
                   FROM - greenbear
                   High all! 180,what is the time in 12/12 till the G girls are done?



                   TOPIC - stressed induced ramble on h2o cooling.
                   DATE - 14:41:53 7/01/99
                   FROM - looper
                   Old bud- Been extremely busy and therefore extremely delayed getting the girls under the lights. As you may or may
                   not recall, I was also setting up a new NFT/aero set up in a new room set up. Had to build the room from scratch, build
                   new ozone generators, wire and plumb the room (all hard wired and hard line plumbed) build custom reflectors and the
                   aero system it self all while trying to keep nosey friends and neighbors away. If you have the new Tom Waits disc
                   (mule variations) thereís a song/poem called ìwhatís he building in thereî which describes my situation perfectly. My
                   room is only 5í 6î wide and 5í6í height x 11í long. My wife says Iím building a watch in a bottle. Anyway (I ramble when
                   stressed) just got everything finally dialed in a few days ago. Had to keep my clones in suspended animation for the
                   last few weeks.

                   Back to the lights. The lights do work great. Had one terrible accident last week when trying to set up a safety wire so
                   the lights could never fall. Of course I dropped them (a lot more ironic than a black fly in a Chardonnay if you ask me;-)
                   filled with water, and snapped off both water in and out feed fittings. Got both replaced (same day) and everything is
                   working great. Made my life more difficult my making my own reflectors and having them move. Had to shim both fitting
                   for proper fit and secure all lines to take the stress off the fittings. Couldnít use my UV-b bulb because they kept
                   getting in the way. Maybe next time.

                   I think I might go for the classic if I were to do it again. I think the proís are really only good for about 2 years max
                   before having to change the lens but hey, the new lens is only $100 can.
                   They do stay cool depending on your flow. I already feel a little bad throwing perfectly good drinking water down the
                   drain so I try to minimize flow and use a solenoid (from a washing machine) connected to my light timer. If you crank
                   up the flow, the lens actually feels cool. Even with low flow, with 2 water-cooled 1000ís and 2 un-cooled 400ís my
                   temps only raise 10-12 degrees F. Donít forget this is in a 330 foot3 room/box.

                   i think theyíd work great with a sun twist. Just make sure you secure the hoses to relieve the fitting and donít over
                   tighten them. As a safety measure, use a 25-psi dropping regulator ($10 from Home Depot) if using city water in. My
                   favorite part of the set up is that by running a rad in my res connected to my in feed, I can dial in my res temp almost
                   perfectly. So far so good and my babies are very very happy. I always loved organics but I love the hardware of aero and
                   water-cooled and as a side bonus this is my best growth ever.

                   I have some photoís I can post somewhere if interested.

                   Re: citric acid and raw cane sugar. Done this myself a few times but the citric acid made my pH plummet. It did come
                   up in a few days but Iím a big fan of a steady pH.

                   Question for all. For those who flower from rooted clones, do you go straight into a flower mix or do you use a
                   transitional formula (i.e. with GH do you go straight to 1-2-3 or use something like 2-2-2 for the first two weeks?)

                   Grow safe and happy Canada day.



                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 13:29:13 7/01/99
                   FROM - Budm
                   Hi All,

                   Vic- I saw you post that you were trying a shorter Dark period, can you say haw its working out yet?

                   KGB- Im going to resend, I have the prolbem worked out.



                   TOPIC - 180, Smack Dad, stix
                   DATE - 13:17:57 7/01/99
                   FROM - Blazer
                   180 I couldn't agree more Mi Amigo;) as usual eh? LOL
                   *Smack Dad If You can run both lamps in flower, DO IT! I'd love the chance at doing that here, but space etc. won't
                   allow it. I know several people that use a combo of MH and HPS through flower w/ wicked results. I think the combined
                   spectrum is awesome andshould be used in flower whenever possible IMO.
                   STIX Our pleasure Man! It's what WE are all about IMO! Bringing new and better ideas to benefit the group as a whole
                   is My goal and just hope it all reciprocates in the long haul, it usually does;)
                   Hope I didn't miss anything post wise. Vic's got Me thinking UVB now damnit! LOL Where does it end? It doesn't;)
                   Keep it coming VIC:)
                   Peace Friends, Blazer


                   TOPIC - c99
                   DATE - 11:32:20 7/01/99
                   FROM - Eric
                   I really like your uvb posts and i look forward to your responce after you test potency. from 10 seeds I got 8 to germ..3
                   females 5 males. but i killed all males before any pollen was taken.....shit. C99 looks good so far...they are in 5 gallon
                   buckets about 5 feet tall ...whast i like most so far is the lack of leaf..it is not as "bushy" and without the added leaf
                   (more branch) it is harder to spot from the sky. They will start budding next month so i will let you guys know how well
                   they end up....they should be pretty good

                   Vic I will trade you a hawiian bud for some c99 pollen.


                   TOPIC - this and that
                   DATE - 11:09:42 7/01/99
                   FROM - Vic High
                   Just looked at the grapefruit in flower. As a rule, I've always thought of it as being a light green plant when compared to
                   the dark green blueberries and romulans. However, it does in fact have purple on the stems. Actually, all the plants
                   have a fair amount of purple, maybe I have a P deficiency. Maybe I'll water with some foxfarms next watering.

                   Maybe it's time for an update on the UVB lighting. Plants have been flowering since June 1st. To refresh, male is the
                   same old blueberry, girls are my two original blueberries (BL-8 & BL-10) and the super blueberry from Bubbi (BBL-7).
                   Also in there are three original romulans, a G13, UBC, and grapefruit. The grapefruit is a way ahead of the rest (with the
                   most resin production) at this point, but that usually changes over the next couple of weeks. G13 and romulan have the
                   most sparkly leaves, but they are also closest to UVb light. UVb source is a TL 40W/12 RS UV-B Medical flo. I started
                   exposure at about a minute per hour and gradually increased until I noticed a reaction by the plants. The male reacted
                   the harshest, drats! Now they get 4 1/2 minutes exposure every hour. Reaction to UVb was that the leaves would
                   wrinkle up and kinda take on the appearance of an orange peel, for lack of a better description. Male developed faster
                   than I wanted and so I cut it back at 2 weeks but it still has spilled most of it's load. I hope I can drag it out for another
                   2 weeks to maximise pollination. What is interesting is that I'm growing at a much higher lumen intensity (50w/ft) than
                   normal but only the grapefruit seems to be reacting to the added lumens. Oh, and the blueberries look happy and not a
                   bit bitchy, all three have a strong smell of blueberry which is hit and miss at lower lumens.

                   On the C99 grow, all is normal with some being bigger than others, with the exception with the lone triploid. Usually
                   triploid growth eventually gives way to diploid growth after a few sets of leaves, this one is still showing a strong triple
                   leaf/node pattern while keeping pace with the rest of the larger ones.


                   TOPIC - question for vic about grapefruit
                   DATE - 09:11:19 7/01/99
                   FROM - anon
                   vic, do your grapefruit have purple stems?? i'm wondering if my grapefruit are experiencing a phosphorous deficiency...
                   thanks for your input.


                   TOPIC - citric and sugar
                   DATE - 08:53:33 7/01/99
                   FROM - stix
                   Thanks to all you folks who brought this to our attention(Blaze, 180, etc). I gotta say out of all the things Ive poured in
                   my res to try to improve taste and smell in my hydro, this is the best smelling!! And by FAR the least expensive. (Oh
                   lordy Ive used some nasty stuff to no avail-like Earth Juice with the big greasy lookin chunks)
                   That raw sugar brought back some good memories, when I was a kid on the farm we made our own sugar cane syrup
                   and sugar crystals would form in the bottom of the container which looked and taste just like the raw sugar. Again,
                   thanks both for the tip and the memory!


                   TOPIC - Kersmack!
                   DATE - 08:32:05 7/01/99
                   FROM - Danbo
                   Is smack a positive thing these days?

                   Smack Daddy, I've used osmocote for years. It
                   comes in two time release formulas. Ones 4 month,
                   the other longer. It works as it's name implies and
                   releases to the soil by defusing their content. It
                   leaves behind the little orbs . If you use the same
                   hole years later, you'll see them. If you plan for
                   them to be your only source of ferts, use plenty.
                   1/2 to 1 cup should be enough for a 20 gallon hole.


                   TOPIC - loop_hole
                   DATE - 07:30:12 7/01/99
                   FROM - Old Bud
                   How are the water cooled lights working? Can you give us an update? Thinking about picking some up this weekend
                   and a sun twist.
                   Vic- no need to explain or justify, like you've said before "it's my house and my rules". Makes sense to me.



                   TOPIC - Thanks Blazer
                   DATE - 07:27:14 7/01/99
                   FROM - SmackDaddy
                   The MH is the easiest thing for me to get at the present. I have to keep it prospective the first time around for the
                   money purposes alone. If I took and added a 150 watt HPS at the time of flowering, will it help where I need the full time
                   HPS? I know where I can get one at no charge. I really need to use the Halide if possible. The ballast was made for the
                   Halide though. I would like to get a good system someday but it will take a lot of planning and prepareing for "THE BIG
                   EVENT" HA HA!!!!! Thanks cedartop & Blazer. I'll think of something else as I go along. What is everyones comment on
                   OZMACOTE fertilizer?


                   TOPIC - vic, you're fine
                   DATE - 05:30:33 7/01/99
                   FROM - 180
                   vic, i politely (hehe) disagree with eric's post below.
                   we all know that the hempqc link brings in lurkers and newbies. most of them have the sense not to post irrelevant
                   questions, because they read the board and see what sort of discussion is going on. the ones who DO post the
                   irrelevant or inappropriate Q's MUST be discouraged or "led back onto the path", otherwise bcga chat becomes
                   scattered and useless like some other chat boards whose names i won't mention.

                   if a poster can't figure out that the link from hempqc IS (as described on the hempqc site menu) a LINK, leading to
                   another URL, then they OBVIOUSLY NEED a wake up call.

                   no one should be stumbling around the internet like a drunk, anymore than they should be out in the street, stumbling
                   around in traffic. (nothing against drunks, but you know what i mean).

                   and your comment about parents' "irrational" anger is right on the money. you as the operator of the site have an
                   obligation to exclude minors, for their own protection. if they conduct themselves in a mature fashion and fool us all into
                   believing they are "self-responsible", then perhaps they also have the sense to behave that way in the real world as
                   well, but the ones who act like KIDS really do need to be sent packing, it's the only RESPONSIBLE thing to do!



                   TOPIC - ATTN: Budm
                   DATE - 22:26:40 6/30/99
                   FROM - KGB
                   Hey bud, couldn't open that PGP message you sent. Could ya try it again, just post it to me in ADPC...thanks.


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