BC Growers Association

BCG Message Board Archives

December 1999 Archives

This is the archives from the BC Growers Message Board

                   DATE - 11:34:28 1/01/100
                   FROM - testing

                   is this script compatible?

                   TOPIC - duhhhhhh
                   DATE - 19:35:35 12/31/99
                   FROM - High-

                   who's stoned ... not me


                   TOPIC - Check It Out
                   DATE - 19:31:38 12/31/99
                   FROM - High-see

                   see if this helps trust me its a much better description than you'd get out of me right now heh but Iguana boy gives it a
                   pretty thourough going over here "Lots of pretty pictures to go along with it .. gotta love a cat that'll give you a multi
                   media description heh

                   take care -n- be safe all
                   heh after twelve -n- I'm still alive heh go figure

                                                         Link: scrog

                   TOPIC - Best description of "training"-n- scrog in general
                   DATE - 16:34:13 12/31/99
                   FROM - High-see


                   heres the best description of scrog and Training .. better thanI could whip up in my present condition heh. Iggy did it
                   right with this one. lots of pic's to illustrate ....Dang those buds look yuuuuummie
                   hap hap happy New Year all
                   take care -n- be safe

                                                       Link: Iguanas place

                   TOPIC - proximity of buds to bulb(nexus)
                   DATE - 02:44:27 12/31/99
                   FROM - rx

                   under hps I have seen buds grow right up against the bulb before they burn. One or two inches of clearance is all you
                   neeed if your circulation is good enuff. Direct the fan so it blows directly over the tops. That's all I know.

                   TOPIC - high see - "vegatative training"
                   DATE - 02:37:59 12/31/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Dear High See - can you describe "vegatative training"? Do you pinch the stem, where, how many laterals you you

                   TOPIC - Light & Scrog problems
                   DATE - 19:27:06 12/30/99
                   FROM - nexus

                   I put my scrog screen up today ,screen is w=2ft,l=6ft and 1 foot hight from plants , they are under a 1k hps with
                   aircooled + light rail. The plants are 6 mr.nices and 4 c99s , well anyways How far can i get my light to the plants
                   without buring them , see i have 2 feet from the screen to the light , that poses a real problem and I am puting them
                   intoflower in a couple of weeks and i dunno what to do?ALso they are in a drip/nft system soo what do u think i can
                   Also i just ordered a 1k mh and will be putting them in another room of w- 5 1/2,l=6ft, and h=7 1/2 , feet i dunno what
                   the best way to make max yeild out of them i was thinking about setting up a modualr v screen and how far does the
                   vertical screen have to be from the side of the walls also how far does the vertical screen have to be from the light
                   without burning the buds? When growing them vertical up the screen when do i put them into flower -when they are half
                   ways up the screen? Will be making a drip/NFT system with 7 gfws, I was thinking how much yeild do u think i can get
                   out of the 1k mh room?


                   TOPIC - powdery mildew ...the mildew that ate cleveland
                   DATE - 19:19:35 12/30/99
                   FROM - sb

                   My experience with powdery mildew is a follows...
                   appears as small whitish powdery spots here and there.Generally in areas of the grow with reduced airflow.
                   Seems harmless enough at first and doesn't really spread very fast until you turn your back for a few days and
                   All of the sudden you realize that the overall health of the grow is in a spin... Your' flowering beauties are starting to
                   look like flocked x-mas trees.Yield suffers horribly and the pot that you do harvest is pretty much a loss unless you're
                   really hard up...
                   1 tsp baking soda and 1 tbl veg oil to 1 gal of water sprayed over the plants every week keeps the beast at bay but will
                   not irradicate it.
                   Neem oil will knock back a bad case quickly, but you should immediately follow up with the soda/oil spray to keep it in
                   In the last few days(oops, turned my back) I began to notice that the PM was gaining a foothold again.I applied a
                   sulphur spray and as this product makes no claims of erradication, I'll be sure to keep spaying once a week as a
                   pentence for inattention.
                   I'd like to hear others experiences


                   TOPIC - oyaeh
                   DATE - 10:31:23 12/30/99
                   FROM - oimaenclaytontnoe

                   thank you i would luv to. ifya still wantta.

                   restovyall-if i dont see yall for a coupla days ill be roiting yha and laying in the softwintersun
                   on the pcnk basket.prolly
                   unless i dont iquess

                   antiriotous2, *

                   TOPIC - wakes
                   DATE - 09:07:09 12/30/99
                   FROM - claytontno

                   hc-yeah thats happndt me fro.
                   cemosavvy wen't to texas

                   anyway, now, lets hava g00d l00K@thoseteeth.com[alil'oke]

                   also, ive got some seeds that were a gift that i would like to donate to the next auction too, and was wondering what
                   the "heck" oer doen. kickitup?

                   don't have any fun,



                   TOPIC - Lets try that link one more time
                   DATE - 06:45:25 12/30/99
                   FROM - High-see

                   sorry bout that I dont know why it didnt post the first time but here ya go ... they have unbelievable deals on ballasts
                   84.24 prepaid like 100.00 if you dont prepay

                                                 Link: LIights, Lights -n- more LIghts

                   TOPIC - lighting
                   DATE - 01:27:29 12/30/99
                   FROM - rx

                   I only know what I read. My lighting experience is limited to a stationary 400w hps. My readings recomend at least
                   80w/sq.ft. Are you on the low end of that number? I am considering 400w mps combo with 175mh. Something will have
                   to move. I may set the plants on a lazy susan.(INSPIRED BY HIGH SEE'S WHEELED DOLLYS.) Good luck!

                   TOPIC - big apple
                   DATE - 19:45:28 12/29/99
                   FROM - Gentlemans Farmer

                   try Vic`s main page, i`m sure he has a write-up on it. Pottasium Silcate, and Sulfar comes to mind first. Yes it can
                   wipe out your crop fast! Look at Safers Soap products that treat powdery mildew. Good luck.

                   TOPIC - powdery mildo
                   DATE - 15:16:34 12/29/99
                   FROM - manhatten

                   sorry about the spelling guys. can any one comment on powdery mildo problems.. can this take out your crop. is
                   benemyl the best product to use how do you apply it...I have been told that locally thies is a seriou problem that many
                   gardeners encounter

                   TOPIC - Bad Ass deal on lights
                   DATE - 12:39:07 12/29/99
                   FROM - High-see

                   K guys y'all ignore my questions but I got something for you anyway
                   I lurks, I reads, I learns ,heh.
                   ohhhh gentleman farmer
                   I'm on the sound enhancement I read a thread bout it on another board of the orriginal testing and they did sound
                   horrendously overblown but hey even a 50% increase wouldnt suck for 12.95 I think I like the little acoustice sound
                   generators that actually put that vibrations on the plant instead of in the ambient sound ... wouldnt you like to get
                   pulses of 5000 hz multitracked -n- off layered ala motivational and sleep learning hmmmmmm I wonder...
                   be safe all


                   TOPIC - Peaceness
                   DATE - 07:57:30 12/29/99
                   FROM - Gentlemans Farmer

                   On your flood i`m told after the roots have poked out of the slab rw to go to flooding 4 times during lights on for 1/2hr.
                   each time and only 1/4 the way up the rw slab or block. During lights out, may-be once. Sounds like twice a day is
                   good enough now until the roots go searching and are poking out all over the place.

                   I have used flock rw before and found it really throws your PH around alot. I had to always ajust ph then have to flush
                   the girls from the top with lots of corrected ph`ed water. I ended up buying a watering wand and hooked it up to the
                   pump to do the job quicker. Pain in the ass, but may-be they have changed it by now, that was about 4.5 years ago.

                   On the sponge inserts for the mesh baskets, um it is very light weight, about 5/8 thick, not as dense as carpet
                   underlay. It floats very easy. A good grow shop should be able to get it, as for something else that might work like it, i
                   would be careful of what it is made from. You do not want anything leaching out or reacting with the nutrs. and effecting
                   the girls.

                   TDS is showing what?? Holy fck man thats high, go by what your plants are looking like, if they show burn on the
                   bloom end well flush her out and drop the ppm. I think may-be that the bloom has been running longer than the veg and
                   thats why it`s showing signs of fert burn. Your nutrs. are a bit high with the amounts that you showed us imho. Here is
                   a good way to use your TDS, ajust your first fresh batch of nutrs so that when replenishing your res. with half strength
                   nutrs the ppm will not rise until the 6 day then replenish again on day 6 with straight water and on day 7 if ppm rises
                   again it`s time to flush everything out of the res. and start with a fresh batch. ie: start with fresh batch at say 1400 ppm
                   and replenish res. each day with 700ppm The res should stay stable at 1400 until you get to the end of the week and
                   then when you replenish with straight water and the next day the ppm still rises above 1400 then you know the girls are
                   drinking more water than nutrs, and should be flushed. The trick is to find that first ppm strength and keep it there so it
                   will last a week. Some people go 2 wks before flushing, replenishing the res every day with just straight water! Your
                   call dude!--- If ppm goes down the next day or within a couple of hrs. then you know that the girls are hungry and
                   should try a bit stronger nutrs. if ppm rises then they are too full and just drinking water and producing too much salts,
                   quite easy really.---

                   TOPIC - TDS
                   DATE - 21:22:51 12/28/99
                   FROM - Peaceness

                   Ok, just pulled out my TDS pen, which i have not used in a while. first tested distilled water and it came out at 60. i
                   then did my nutrient water and it came out at over 2000. the veg and bloom tables showed levels of over 2000, yet the
                   veg are not showing any burns from over fertilization. what's up?


                   TOPIC - Your opinions please.
                   DATE - 21:09:17 12/28/99
                   FROM - Peaceness

                   hi guys,

                   have been doing a lot of regards to a few projects.

                   those that are using rockwool soely as a medium, in an ebb n flow:

                   how often do you flood the table, and for how long? (i am currently waterig the plants in 2 cycles, 12 hours apart for a
                   duration of 30 minutes each cycle. Thus the table gets flooded for a total of 1 hour each day.)
                   My concern is that i hear that one should flood the table 5-6 times per day for about 20 mins each time. will i get better
                   growth watering more often, or just more waterlog? using my current watering cycle, my plants do not get to dry and

                   also, i am at 3 weeks of flower and my gh nute ratio is: (ml per gallon)


                   I am starting to get yellowing with brown tips of some leaves(middle leaves).
                   also the leave tips are SLIGHTLY burned.
                   i am not sure that the nutrient is too strong though. my p.h. is at 5.8.
                   Other than that, they are doing fine.

                   Vic High:
                   Brother, can you tell me anything about your chemo x g13 cross. am looking for something that would do well in sea of
                   green or supper cropped? what about yield and internode length?

                   Gentelemans Farmer.Are you talking about that spongy hydro medium that looks lke the stuff they lay under carpets?
                   will be doing some side by side tests with rockwool flock i 5" baskets(aeroflo). do you have any exp. using it this way
                   against rocwool or leca stone?

                   rx, what up guy? I still have a few days till i go and buy my system. am thinking about lining up (4) 3 x 3 ebb n flows=
                   36 sq. ft. And having that lit by (2) 1000 watters on light movers. in otherwords 1-1000 watt will be moving over (2) 3X3
                   table. i figured that this would be bettter than havig an 8x4 table covered by the same lighting on lightmovers. whatch
                   y'all think?

                   Lighting: have heard of the great deals on lighting up in canada. does anyone know of a place that will ship to the u.s.?


                   TOPIC - That 5K Vibe ...
                   DATE - 19:17:11 12/28/99
                   FROM - C.G.

                   Gentleman & rx :

                   You're both probably close to the mark ... I found time to go through most of those links, and many of those claims
                   certainly sound grandiose at best, if not outright Looney Tune. One thing I found disturbing was a reference to gibrillic
                   acid as one of the constituents of the foliar spray. Sounds like an invitation to "stretch".

                   However, there might be a nub of truth hiding in there. I think a search of the patent records might prove very interesting
                   ... .

                   Then again, the cost of the smallest unit and concentrate for 32 Gal. of spray isn't all that outrageous.

                   A test using just the taped sounds could be instructive, and fairly simple for someone with an established grow and
                   good records.

                   One of those links has a similar "grow tape" for only $12.95 plus shipping.

                   Anyone want to give it a shot?

                   Just curious.

                   TOPIC - rx
                   DATE - 18:03:10 12/28/99
                   FROM - Gentlemans Farmer

                   700% bullshit i say!! If that was the case everyone and his dog would have been doing it before now! If it`s to good to be
                   true, it is! Every farmer west of the pecos would be blasting tunes to their crops, helicopters flying everywhere blasting
                   the tunes, Nam all over again LOL! Not that i don`t think that is has some effect on the girls but 700%, give me a break!

                   That is the only down fall with the net, anyone can put a phd. beside their name and write a paper and say it`s true.
                   Seeing, not reading, is believing!

                   TOPIC - combo hps + mh
                   DATE - 15:07:01 12/28/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Vic and Peaceness - have you considered combining hps and mh in series - e.g. two hours of hps then two hours of
                   mh, and so on. I'm following your dialoge with great intrest.

                   TOPIC - 5kmz (mozart effect)
                   DATE - 15:00:13 12/28/99
                   FROM - rx

                   c.g. - that sounds too good to be true (700%).with a boost like that, who needs co2? are you going to try it?

                   TOPIC - ground
                   DATE - 14:39:35 12/28/99
                   FROM - uh-clem

                   theres something in thea way i havent noticed as much until lately , ceemz we keep ossing tween eart &sky and so it
                   makes it easier ta see, and any way then you get this "Firesign Theatre" effect mixed wiht , and ya cannot see em
                   because its on a record , has any one evr listened to "I Think We're All Bozos on this Bus?" (some janes luv-it)

                   now i dont mean to, but sometimes im one of those s and ask ya ..forget. iwant to sometimes. tha devil must advocat,
                   and still,, isnt theare something in thea ground, reaching deeper, maybe? certainly more mediate cause of phaze of the
                   saeled bix. 0yaea, anyway, cause i didnt come here_~ looking for friends, i combed to learne.. &ya got something that
                   helqs,,? and we all doe, athen i dont care what ur charavtar r .

                   if ya can say it so I can hear it-clearestfunenuf.rockmon&off..

                   im wantto start the greatest company on earth, (clownosesjanes' visionary spectacles $2.00)., doevr4 the sky *., ande
                   letting eve3ryone be evr they r. which as we noe now is hoestory.wichoestand. you made me, i new
                   notheingprtemucho. and of coarse, you can destroy-me or , anudge d'janed will maybe doit if ima wake. wanyway,for
                   tha happy franklyfree individuals this place encourages I alwwys go here_~ ta see thea other cranks and soak it up^.

                   *notice: all jane sights (imaen sites) r grraaeto ..

                   ra, claysparrow

                   TOPIC - aero filters
                   DATE - 07:44:16 12/28/99
                   FROM - Gentlemans Farmer

                   dr evil the filters are clean-able and are before the pump not after. Look for them at pipe dreams.com And as irish was
                   saying, sponge tops are the best imho. I have tried them with the 5in baskets and 1in. rw cubes and i an amazed at
                   the growth of roots compared with the traditional rw/leca combo, i have them side by side and seeing is believing! The
                   1in. cube is suspended in the 5 in. basket hanging from the sponge, i thought that the weight on the now wet cubes
                   might pull them down but no problem so far and the stalk is just getting thicker so i can`t see a problem with that this
                   time. But 1 or 2 in. baskets when using rw cubes would assure you that this would not happen. I`m going to a aero way
                   of cloning and not using any rw or leca rock, just feed the roots to the deer and make oil out of the leaves and stalk and
                   smoke the rest! Gotta love it!! And if you are into the stadium effect the 1 in baskets would allow you to turn the
                   baskets 160 degrees and back with out tugging on your roots so much as with a 5 in. Mind you, if done right the roots
                   will intertangle with each other and form a trampoline type of mat of roots lifting off the bottom of the pipes or gutters
                   and forming a more true aero set-up with the water running underneath the roots back to the res. Again seeing is

                   TOPIC - Trade???
                   DATE - 19:19:03 12/27/99
                   FROM - high-see

                   reading the archives I notice a couple of us are/were building new or upgrading older systems.
                   would anyone be interested in trading a 400w hps or son-agro for 15" NEC flatscreen multisync used three weeks
                   before I got a screaming deal on a 17" so its just been hanging round ever since Email @ nuniabiz@operamail.com

                   pseudoscience heh ...luv it
                   Thanks all hope y'all had a great yule -n- merry ho ho ho

                   TOPIC - Sound influence on plant growth - more info.
                   DATE - 18:04:58 12/27/99
                   FROM - C.G.

                   There has been some discussion here in the past about the influence of music on plant growth. Most of the information
                   we were able to find online, through search engines, focused on variations of "The Mozart Effect".

                   There is a recent post on cannabinoid.com with a great deal more information in this regard. It's in the Advanced
                   Growing section, post # 12787. There are several links included, and a brief tour of those sites was Quite interesting.

                   Evidently, the 5000 Hz frequency does the trick, and in conjunction with foliar feeding, results in some remarkable

                   Take a look, check it out, and report back.

                   Santa brought me a dose of the flu for Christmas. Joy to the World!

                   TOPIC - gentlemans farmer re: aero tables
                   DATE - 04:37:56 12/27/99
                   FROM - irish

                   my friend has some nft gutters that accept only the small 1" (he says two inch) cups. the holes are 1 7/8" in diameter,
                   shaved out to about 1 15/16" so the cups SNAP in. they are able to hold a three foot plant. the holes are on six inch
                   centers. maybe i will try to post some pics on overgrow or cannworld, when i do i will post a link.

                   all that my friend uses are the 1" rockwool cubes or the oasis cubes, fits 'em in there. throws some rocks in the cup to
                   block the light, and watches em grow. so much less waste than the RW slabs he was using. when the plant is done,
                   he trims away the roots, can recycle the cup, and the oddest looking trash from this is 1" square piece of a root/cube
                   mix. not like the old 4" he used to try to toss out. the rest goes in compost. rocks get boiled, resoaked and back in the
                   bucket for later.

                   since you had mentioned the foam, he was thinking of getting some of those made, a bunch of 1" thick foam pads, slit
                   like a "C" shape to slide over and then slip in the cup. you could reuse the ...um... "heck" out of them, less muss, cuts
                   out the rocks... all you have is compost.

                   couple that up to an aquaponic drip system, with some guano/organic meals tea and you have great fish and chips
                   when you have the munchies...never need a grow shop again.

                   TOPIC - Hi All
                   DATE - 21:32:47 12/26/99
                   FROM - Anon

                   Loop: you have mail
                   Wadsworth: Unless you could point to something you "did" to the plant to stress it into herming, I'd be inclined to dump
                   it, myself. Not a good idea to use it for breeding if it hermed on its own, because it will pass its gender confusion on to
                   its offspring. On the other hand, if it is a result of stress, some would call it useful for breeding all female seeds. I don't
                   argue that, but as Mr. Soul has pointed out before, those seeds should not be used for breeding, for the reasons
                   mentioned above. HTH

                   Gentleman Farmer: Are the aero filters you mentioned cleanable? If not, it would be my guess that the expense of
                   repeatedly changing them would offset any benefit gained by flooding the areo tubes with organics, especially since it
                   is liable to wash particulates out of the tubes slowly and continuously for a long time after application. I suppose you
                   could add a fluid bed type filter directly after the tubes, or put in a couple of different stages of filters that could be
                   cleaned ahead of the small particle aero filter. I'm a fan of the aero style, but I think it would be incompatable with
                   aquaponics, which is the type of setup I'm starting on. I think bacterial slime would plug any misters used.

                   Vic: What do you suppose you'd get crossing an IBL with an unrelated F1., such as bubblegum and romberry
                   (rombubbleberry?). I'm not sure what the distribution of traits is supposed to come out like in such a case. Any ideas. I
                   know how this is supposed to work in a f1 or f2 cross, but not this. Any ideas?

                   Well, Happy New Yields everyone

                   TOPIC - Merry Christmas Stoners!
                   DATE - 20:36:17 12/25/99
                   FROM - Wadsworth

                   One of my romberrys is going hermie. Should I chop it now or is the pollen worth keeping? Also at what point should
                   pollen be collected from a male?


                   TOPIC - feliz navidad!
                   DATE - 10:44:58 12/25/99
                   FROM - m.g.

                   and a merry new year...


                   TOPIC - Vic High
                   DATE - 10:02:54 12/25/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   Just want to say thanks for making this space for us, have a good holiday!

                   All the best Ot1.

                   TOPIC - Vic
                   DATE - 07:36:31 12/25/99
                   FROM - Gentlemans Farmer

                   ---if ya want, i`ll help pack a tune on my shoulders come new years. Also may-be that sooped up version of ahhh, that
                   sports car will be there if you show up, she wants me to just be her mechanic not her driver!! LMAO!---See ya there?

                   TOPIC - aero-tables
                   DATE - 07:29:10 12/25/99
                   FROM - Gentlemans Farmer

                   ---looks like i`m on my own again lol! i was alone on the aeroponics a few years ago, ( Shabang and Soul were trying to
                   help back then) no one was doing it yet and it was a learning curve! Will let everyone know how things set up and how
                   it does. PS aero rocks over anything that i have come across, people are just catching on now and are switching to
                   aero or at least hydro LOL! ( people that were chastizing me for not going with good old soul, i mean soil!! LOL!)

                   ---I also have thought of a way to add organics to the aero table with out plugging up the misters using the KISS
                   method. After the girls have devolped a good root structure, say after the 3 wk. in bud add another smaller seperate
                   res. (15 gals) and flood the table and the roots lol and have it return to your orgaincs res. just plug off what drain you do
                   not want it to go into. The little bit that will be left in the bottom of the table should be filtered out using the new filters
                   that they have come up with for the aero users. You should have the best of both worlds.----What am i missing in this

                   ---Merry Christmas all and a smokin new year!!

                   TOPIC - HAPPY HOLIDAYS
                   DATE - 04:58:39 12/25/99
                   FROM - irish

                   .....to all the mad scientists and the not so mad scientists.
                   thank you for this past year, looking forward to the next millenium (well, part of it anyway...LOL) with all of you.

                   and who knows... if santa brings me a brain, i may have something to share with all of you...

                   happy holidays, and many sweet harvests for all

                   TOPIC - Merry Christmas All
                   DATE - 01:33:56 12/25/99
                   FROM - Anon

                   Hi all,
                   Just wanted to wish everyone happy holidays.
                   Loop: still looking at the list, trying to determine exactly what I want (too many choices!) I'll drop you a line sunday.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 19:25:35 12/24/99
                   FROM - sb

                   Vic and the bcga crew
                   Happy holidays to you all!


                   TOPIC - stay safe
                   DATE - 19:17:35 12/24/99
                   FROM - loop

                   Merry xmas all,
                   Hope everyone has a safe and healthy grow in 2k

                   TOPIC - water
                   DATE - 19:00:29 12/24/99
                   FROM - puffer

                   I'm starting up a small grow cabinet, 2-3 plants tops. I
                   was wondering how many gallons of water I should use. I want to change water as little as possible - 2 or 3 weeks.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 16:02:45 12/24/99
                   FROM - la.bud

                   merry christmas vic and all!!!

                   TOPIC - merry christmas
                   DATE - 12:42:39 12/24/99
                   FROM - florida-cracker

                   hope one and all has a merry christmas and a even better new year.
                   god bless

                   TOPIC - ya1
                   DATE - 12:04:31 12/24/99
                   FROM - deplanojane

                   hey ms c. can 11 come out to play.
                   9r33n6aen, you nos egot xmus2

                   TOPIC - HO HO HO, Merry christmas to all!!
                   DATE - 08:31:18 12/24/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   Gentlemans Farmer - only one main thought bud, but you already said it, big roots = big buds, haha. When it was fresh
                   on my mind, I made a few notes here. I think I've since cut and paste them to a [age dedicated to Steve's aquaponic


                   mg - great link dude, any followers of the dead cow have an opinion on this new security option? Can you imagine
                   getting all those with security concerns all dedicated to one outfit? Man what a score that would be for some LEO. Ya
                   know me, the ever present skeptic with these things. Still not even convinced on the wisdom of PGP, hehe. I would to
                   see some of the proven hacker groups have a go at zero knowledge ;)

                   peaceness - are your lights going to be stationary or on a mover? If moving, just 2 1000s should be quite efficient
                   (HPS), I have a buddy doing the same dimensions and once he fine tuned the spacing and travel of the lights (key
                   points here), his light coverage wasn't lacking anywhere, could easily be lighting a 4 by 10 table. I imagine adding a
                   400MH to each 1000HPS would really kick ass, haha, but would yield less per watt. But more overall.

                   If stationary, it becomes a tougher call. Maybe 4 600s would give the best bang for the buck. It's tough to combine
                   HPS and MH effectively in a stationary setup, you just get pockets of MH and pockets of HPS, so I wouldn't bother
                   trying. However I have seen some setups where both bulbs are placed in the same hood. Maybe 6 - 430 sunagros
                   would be a good compromise. However, the right choice will be dependant on how big you want to grow your plants and
                   the style of hoods you plan to use, IMO. Shorter plants would make several lower wattage lights more efficient if you
                   could take advantage of the lower heat and keep them closer to the plants ;)

                   OT1 - my comment above are off the top of my head without brushing up on your setup when mentioning 600s. If I
                   conflict with you, it isn't intentional. Peaceness, if there is a discrepency between the two, go with OT, he has the 600
                   experience, haha. I typed the above before reading OT's post, haha.

                   rx - interesting limestone comments. IMO, if the roots are gathering at the bottom, it will be for the oxygen on the air,
                   not the CO2. Yes I know there are a couple outfits trying to mislead the consumer with their CO2 growing
                   medium/solution ammendments. However, it is well known, that adding oxygen to the root zone is far more beneficial
                   to a plant than CO2. CO2 is a waste product of root respiration. Overwatering symptoms arise when too much of the
                   oxygen in the root zone is replaced with CO2. So if those products improve plant performance, it is not because of
                   adding CO2 to the root zone.

                   Another bonus of the limestone gravel may be the pH difference between it and your soil though. Not all nutrients are
                   available at the same pH and many growers believe that letting your pH drift up and down on a daily basis is a good
                   thing. It helps maximize nutrient availability. You may be accomplishing this by having a slightly acidic soil and a more
                   alkaline gravel base ;)

                   here is a cut and paste from an intersting article:

                   pH Monitoring and Control

                   Is pH control important?

                   Most people assume pH control is essential, but there is considerable misunderstanding about the effect of pH on plant
                   growth. Plants grow equally well between pH 4
                   and 7, if nutrients do not become limiting. This is because the direct effects of pH on root growth are small, the problem
                   is reduced nutrient availability at high and low
                   pH. The recommended pH for hydroponic culture is between 5.5 to 5.8 because overall availability of nutrients is
                   optimized at a slightly acid pH. The availabilities of Mn,
                   Cu, Zn and especially Fe are reduced at higher pH, and there is a small decrease in availability of P, K, Ca, Mg at
                   lower pH. Reduced availability means reduced
                   nutrient uptake, but not necessarily nutrient deficiency.

                   Unfortunately, hydroponic systems are so poorly buffered that it is difficult to keep the pH between 4 and 7 without
                   automatic pH control. Phosphorous (H2PO4 to
                   HPO4) in solution buffers pH, but if phosphorous is maintained at levels that are adequate to stabilize pH (1 to 10 mM),
                   it becomes toxic to plants. Plants actively absorb
                   phosphorous from solution so a circulating solution, with about 0.05 mM P has much less buffering capacity than the
                   fresh refill solution that is added to replace
                   transpiration losses. Figure 2a is a titration curve of fresh refill solution compared to the recirculating solution. Six
                   mmoles of base were required to raise the pH of fresh
                   solution from 5.8 to 8, but only 1 mmole of base raised the pH of the circulating solution to 8. Figure 2b shows the
                   slopes (derivatives) of the lines in Figure 2a. Figure 2b
                   clearly shows poor buffering of the circulating solution between pH 5 to 9; small amounts of acid or base rapidly change
                   the solution pH. The fresh refill solution is
                   buffered by phosphorous, which has its maximum buffering capacity at pH 7.2. This point is called the pKa of the buffer
                   and it is the point at which half of the
                   phosphorous is in the H2PO4 form and half is in the HPO4 form. In other words, the phosphate ion absorbs and
                   desorbs hydrogen ions to stabilize the pH.
                   Unfortunately, phosphorous is quickly removed from the solution.

                   We were surprised to find that the circulating solution was better buffered below pH 5 than the fresh solution. The
                   reasons for this are unclear, we cannot identify
                   compounds in the refill solution that provide buffering capacity at pH 4. We are preparing to repeat these
                   measurements and are investigating this finding.

                   How important is maintaining pH 5.8?

                   We control the pH at 4 to study root respiration (to eliminate bicarbonate in solution). We compared growth at pH 4 and
                   pH 5.8 with wheat and were not able to find a
                   significant difference in root growth rate or root metabolism. We now routinely grow wheat crops at pH 4 during the
                   entire life cycle. However, although there is usually
                   a broad optimum pH, it is still best to maintain pH at about 5.8 to optimize nutrient availability. pH levels below 4 may
                   start to reduce root growth, in one study our pH
                   control solenoid failed just after seed germination and the pH went to 2.5 for 48 hours. The roots turned brown and died,
                   but new roots quickly grew back and the plants
                   appeared to make a complete recovery.

                   Bruce Bugbee
                   Crop Physiology Laboratory, Utah State University, Logan, UT 84322-4820


                                         Link: Nutrient Management in Recirculating Hydroponic Cu

                   TOPIC - added U.V with mercury vapor's
                   DATE - 07:58:24 12/24/99
                   FROM - High-see

                   Okay, one more thing
                   I'm going to bring up something that I'm sure will open a 'can O'worms' but I'm afraid I must...
                   okay here we go ... Light's... I have been reading the archives and I'm thinking of going this way .. one 400w hps with a
                   100 to 150w mercury vapor to get the added U. V laid down but wonder if the U. V in the MV's is strong enough for the
                   MV's to need to be staged in slowly to prevent U. V burning

                   K heres where things get interesting... I was hoping to go with a V-scrog type setup. How far from the light source
                   should I keep them??
                   also, any suggestions on the placement of both lights would be more than gladly accepted I haven't worked that little
                   detail out yet as usually one light would be suspended in the center of the vertical screen one more thing in the V-scrog
                   should the bottom horizontal screen remain or should the training be concentrated on the vert's? I'm thinking it must
                   remain to get the scrog effect to begin then keep the outer edges for more vigorous growth

                   thanks to all and hope you all have the greatest of holidays
                   Peace all -n- Merry met my friends

                   TOPIC - scrog -n- V-scrog
                   DATE - 06:35:28 12/24/99
                   FROM - High-see

                   I have been mulling the scrog and V-scrog techniques over as it is close to timr to either put up or shut up so to speak.
                   The one one problem i have heard was that the little octagons are to small for the growing tips to access. I was thinking
                   chain link fencing maybe but I'm not sure if the galvanisation would damage my babies? there is a wire fencing that is
                   used on ranches here the openingws are square usually three to four inches and ungalv. the wire itself is about the
                   same as bailing ire...any thoughts?

                   awwwwww shucks, T'werent nuttin. heh Thanks though, glad to do it

                   TOPIC - root balls and gravel
                   DATE - 03:57:23 12/24/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Congratulations to both sog and scrog you gotta love it links. Outstanding both. Is there some award to recognize such
                   effort and success? Chicken wire, huh, never heard of that one, gotta try it. Very informative. I can't argue with those
                   pictures. Thanks to you both for going to the trouble of posting it.

                   On some board, I read it recently: don't use limestone gravel and suggesting lava rock instead. I made a note to get
                   some lava rock to try in my next grow. The gravel I use is limestone, I think, and I recycle it and have used the same
                   gravel for several years. I have used peter's potting soil ( again for years) but it seems to no longer be available. I am
                   dissatisied with walmart brand and schultz - scotts is not too bad but its not as good as peters - if I could only get

                   Examining a typical root ball when cleaning up after a grow, I note the heaviest rooting is around the bottom of the pot
                   and heavily intertwined with the gravel at the bottom of the pot. That is, the heathiest roots are found in direct contact
                   with the limestone gravel. Thinking about it - acidic soil percolating over limestone could produce co2. (IMHO)The
                   ground water in this area is slightly alkaline. The limestone might buffer the water's alkalinity. What do you think-
                   limestone or lava rock?

                   TOPIC - Sir OT1's great grow
                   DATE - 01:33:47 12/24/99
                   FROM - rx

                   That's a wothwhile grow. Congratulations!

                   TOPIC - btw, check out this place
                   DATE - 18:29:13 12/23/99
                   FROM - m.g.

                   it's a canadian company offering complete anonymous surfing.


                   they can explain it all better than i can...

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 18:18:02 12/23/99
                   FROM - m.g.

                   sure thing,  most everyone here knows i have been a major "rule #1 breaker" since i first got online...for good or for
                   worse. drop me a line and we can work out the particulars. i'm in the valley high school area but am fairly mobile and i
                   usually set up the 1st meet at a bar or casino, wherever you want. most of my local friends are a result of these rooms.

                   and thanks...things are looking up! still no police report filed and they have yet to bring formal charges on me. not even
                   a prosecutor assigned yet and the prelim. hearing has yet to be scheduled. today the insurance company called
                   (allstate) and said they WILL cover the damages!!! they total near $7k so far and most of the damage has been fixed
                   but this news means at least the ins. co. understands what really happened and they will also be interested in getting
                   back their money. maybe we can be co-plaintiffs...hehehe. still can't start our civil suit though...not until we know what
                   the law is planning on doing but it looks like they just want this to quietly go away. too late for that.

                   talk to ya soon...

                   TOPIC - Merry Xmas
                   DATE - 17:50:07 12/23/99
                   FROM - charas

                   Merry Xmas to ya'll up north-Have the greatest-stoned to the bones Holiday Season
                   All the Best,

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 11:19:43 12/23/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   peacness take a look at my setup link and description bit lower down, I use an 8 x 4 bed and my set up works pretty
                   well! Ot1

                   TOPIC - lighting arrangement
                   DATE - 10:55:21 12/23/99
                   FROM - Peaceness

                   hello friends.

                   i am trying to decide on the best way to illuminate an 8x4 ebb n flow. i was thinking of covering this space with 2400
                   watts. now, the question is whether i should use two 1000 watters and a 400 watter OR just hook up six 400 watters?
                   what do y'all think would be more effecient?


                   TOPIC - begging ?
                   DATE - 08:25:06 12/23/99
                   FROM - high-see

                   did asking to trade cross some mystical ethical line or something I'm relatively new to this type of forum so if I did I
                   didnt know but I need to get something going I've got babies to take care of. I did find a kit here in my hometown for
                   119.00 thanks

                   TOPIC - aero-tables
                   DATE - 06:16:20 12/23/99
                   FROM - Gentlemans Farmer

                   --no one has any thoughts or has built one yet? I can`t be the first to think this up.

                   --and why does everyone in aero or dutch pot or drip for that matter, transfer the clones from say 1in. cubes to 5in. or
                   3in mesh baskets then put grow rock around the girls to fill the space in the basket?

                   --this should piss the grow shop owners--how about doing your clones in 1in. mesh baskets with a sponge insert/slit in
                   it to go around the stem of the clone, and growing roots in the bubbler or 10k`s way or any other aero method of
                   cloning. Then transfering the rooted and veg`ed clones to a aero-table and put them into holes on your table top that
                   accept 1in. mesh baskets. No need what so ever to use bigger baskets and grow rock and RW and 1/4 the amount of
                   spitters or misters than a reg aero pipes and or gutters! One mister will do 4 plants instead of 1 mister per site.This
                   does not mean that you would cram more plants into the table, just smaller holes making your table top that much
                   stronger! hmmm what ya all think?

                   --the root structure will hold the plants in place as long as the girls are kept to 2ft.max at finish height. Mine are
                   finished from 12 to 18 in. so should be no problem what so ever.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 01:09:19 12/23/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   C.G. Iíll do my best not to offend you with my non creative writing style hehe.

                   Interesting shot...
                   ==> It was hard to take as I had my arm through an access panel against the ceiling and couldn't see what I was

                   The base is made of a sheet of waterproof mdf with 5îx1î edging so its like a tray. There are levelling feet underneath. It
                   is lined with heavy duty pond liner. This in turn is lined with capillary matting, the one I use holds 5 litres per sq meter.
                   The plants are always watered through the top of all the pots untill the matting is saturated. Having a capillary bed
                   evens out watering inequalities when using a soil based system. A plant that has its compost wet to its maximum
                   capacity wont draw any water from the matting. One that has a dry core to the rootball after watering will have drawn
                   water from the matting untill the compost is wet to its capacity within half an hour of watering. From then on each plant
                   takes water at its own rate untill the matting is dry! Because the tallest plants are round the edges of our grows they
                   are also the biggest users of water and they dry first! I tend to let them dry to a point just before they would wilt. Then
                   the whole cycle starts again! This means I only have to water every 3 to 4 days at the maximum growth period and less
                   at the beginning and end of the grow! The reason for watering through the top of the pots is that if a rootball has dried to
                   the extent that it has come away from the pot it wont rehydrate properly unless wet from the top, this seems to set the
                   capillary action going again. Of course the compost needs a slight addition to its air capacity and be sure to use a
                   good quality wetting agent when making it up.

                   I hope this helps satisfy your curiosity George all the best. Ot1.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 23:26:13 12/22/99
                   FROM - Anon

                   Hi All,
                   Been a little busy with last minute Christmas stuff. For me, shopping is slow torture under the best of circumstances,
                   which tends to make me procrastinate it, adding to the problem. At least I got everything done before the 24th (nearly a
                   personal best :) ).

                   Loop: Got your mail. Now I see what you mean with the "bean hoe" thing! I'll mail you sunday with my thoughts on that.
                   I have some thinking to do on the subject. The actinic flo's are a great idea. As both you and C.G. pointed out about
                   the spectral changes, blue shouldn't be a problem with the fixtures. I should have realized that for myself (yes, C.G., I
                   used to dive quite a bit :) ).

                   C.G. : Ok, I'll let the "puzzle" go. Part of my nature is that when I get something that arouses my curiousity, I hold on
                   to it like a pitbull holds on to a t-bone steak. Most of what I do for a living involves troubleshooting, so it comes in handy

                   Vic: I'm not in a major hurry on the blueberry. It will be a while before I'm ready to try that bubbleberry project. I just
                   wanted to make sure that you were still going to produce some. I eventually want to "archive" some seeds for a rainy
                   day, and the blueberry will go into that project as well. It seems to be a strain that has a lot going for it for

                   OT1: I understand completely on the ES. If, on the otherhand, you should ever do a backcross, I hope you'll keep me in
                   mind. ~RC has some ESB left, so I'll probably give that a try. Interesting about the spider plants. Might help with the
                   semi-sealed system. As to the RO flow output, a measurement would be helpful if it is not too much trouble. It will be
                   about a month before it even becomes an issue for me, so there is no rush. I'm just trying to formulate a plan of action
                   before I start rebuilding. One of the few positive aspects of my recent tribulations is the opportunity to start with a clean
                   sheet of paper, and a lot more knowledge than I had last time.

                   M.G. : Hope things are going better for you. I am even more sympathetic to your recent problems than most, having
                   recently been through similar problems. Thanks for the input on cooling. I think evaporative cooling is liable to send
                   humidity too high without frequent or constant air exchanges, which under current circumstances is impossible. Are
                   there any builder's square still open? The one near me folded a few months ago.

                   Hand: A small bit of constructive criticism... If you could put your posts into some sort of paragraph form. Not to nitpick
                   at all... It just gets hard on the eyes to read. I realize it is easy to let it all run together when you get on a roll. I've been
                   guilty of it myself.

                   Happy Holidays
                   Be Safe

                   TOPIC - That S.O.G. jpeg posting ...
                   DATE - 17:51:51 12/22/99
                   FROM - C.G.

                   oldtimer1 -

                   Interesting shot ... would you please explain the design and functioning of the capillary bed?

                   ( If possible, without the use of multiple exclamation points.)

                   TOPIC - help???
                   DATE - 17:03:49 12/22/99
                   FROM - high-see

                   hey all,
                   I am in desperate need of a decent light 400 or 430w would probably be good for my space but anything for the grow
                   sorry for the blatent pandering but desperatoin is the mother of all insensativities ....apologies to all and all offended
                   thanks for the great 411

                   TOPIC - ot1 and sog
                   DATE - 15:15:14 12/22/99
                   FROM - irish

                   did anyone else get a little misty looking at his garden?...
                   i started to weep like a grandmother at a wedding. beautiful.

                   irish, not ashamed to express my love, hehe.

                   happy holidays.

                   TOPIC - this and that
                   DATE - 10:41:55 12/22/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   Hi! Dam Christmas shopping!! And seasons greetings to you all!!!

                   Dr E Iím not a seed breeder as such I just have a tinker every few years! Iíve kept es going as a clone mother for 17
                   years and Iíve only had to replace her once. Believe me I have 9 mother vars that I keep going + several dads that is
                   enough work! To make it worth while and do a proper job of it I would have to go into the seed business and thats not a
                   road Iím going to take, this is my hobby! You had vanished when I offered esb to regulars here [privately], now its to
                   late as I sent the bulk for A_1ís fund sorry about that. Iíll keep you in mind next time I do something but it wont be for a
                   bit ok! On another tack entirely spider plants are supposed to be able to absorb a number of bad gasses such as
                   formaldehyde in large quantities! And are now considered invaluable in cases of sick building syndrome and space
                   research ie they will be included in further space stations. This is not as an answer to your problem but worth looking
                   Ro units, some of the small ones have built in back pressure regulators and the water to waste keeps running even
                   when you aren't drawing water through the Ro. For the membrane to last a long time it is much better to have a water
                   softener on your incoming main! Iíll get one of our lads to measure the waste water rate if you like as they have this

                   rx and those that are interested I have put a picture at OG looking down on my own grow! What you can see is just
                   over half the area, it is an 8 x 4 ft capillary bed with 78 4 litre pots with organic soil. It has white backed mylar roller
                   blinds on the sides. The plants are on 14 days of 11/13 light to dark! the tallest vars are round the edges es esb and et.
                   The es went into flowering at around 10 inches they are now are now 52 to 59 inches 3.5 inches a day Its a totally
                   different ball game to growing indicas IMHO! Oh yes the lights are 2 x 600w son-t plus and 2 x 400w HQI-T only the
                   halides are on for the photo. Sorry about the photo quality I had to cut it from 590k to under 250 k but its the best I
                   could do. Any how its my version of sea of green!

                   All the best Ot1

                   IMHO = in my humble opinion

                                                          Link: SOG

                   TOPIC - loop de loop
                   DATE - 02:55:33 12/22/99
                   FROM - rx

                   I have never used the monikers you mentioned. Can someone please tell me what IMO and IMOA mean?

                   TOPIC - Cowboy - bunch of years/death
                   DATE - 02:38:22 12/22/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Hi Dude yourself: This same article in NY Times I refered to said 100 or more plant in possession was a capital offense
                   ( lethal injection) in the US under federal law.Sorry I bothered you with what you already know. I guess I didnot
                   understand the question.

                   TOPIC - cooling apts.
                   DATE - 23:58:47 12/21/99
                   FROM - m.g.

                   ...seen some swamp coolers on wheels for portable roomsize cooling with a 6-8 hour reservoir at our local
                   builder's square. if i recall corectly they run around 400 bucks and can cool a standard 10 x 12 room with no probs.
                   fairly quiet but the mobile part sounded best to me. was gonna go that route until i found a 17,000 btu a/c and cut it
                   into the wall.

                   TOPIC - an early contender
                   DATE - 21:29:21 12/21/99
                   FROM - high-see

                   was that a shot??? yeah thats the plan for now. I have some of the tastiest light green thriller in the blaster as we
                   speak/typehopefully I can clone a decent fem. and we shall see
                   again Vic and company thanks for the 411
                   cowboy and tx
                   here is an scrog grow addy for ya'll I'm setting up to try it slightly modified ...updates to follow

                   Peace -N- MERRY MET


                                                     Link: scrog ya gotta love it

                   TOPIC - importence of corroborating
                   DATE - 15:26:28 12/21/99
                   FROM - hand

                   mine owne obsevations are not enough to come to conclusions.example,observing males turn to females,i concluded
                   stress was responsible but evidence from others leads me to conclude backcrossing is more likely the cause.both
                   factors were present one just overlooked,corroboration from other disscusions not even related helped me come to a
                   different conclusion.now if i see a male turn to a female i'll know the real reason.if i through out an occasional stange
                   thought or idea its for corroboration or to incite disscusion,or to give something to someone else to try that they didnt
                   think of and i dont have the means or time or patience to try.but without some corroboration even at a later date,my
                   owne conclusions are just that unsubstantiated.everyone has limits to there patience with whatever.mine is newbie or
                   wanabee questions,closedmindedness, so i avoid.some people will never have a green thumb,i feel sorry for them,but i
                   cant help them.blatently wrong or harmful answers to questions i come across may get attention,just so there is an
                   option.names yes i chose a bad name at the start,i dropped part of it because it implied to much,was misleading i'm
                   still not happy with whats left too much fate.style would identify me even if i changed names,good thing is ive only been
                   posed once,at LM,nobody wants to be me ha ha.advice to future posters chose name and style carefully.the only other
                   style i can muster is poetic,and that dont go over good either.i have a really good poem ive never posted,too
                   controversial if anyone wants to read it tell me where to post it,fate will rear its head.meglomaniac no,obsesive yes.both
                   are good if you seek answers.as i fear the net will become nothing more than a trap for bigger b,i'm going to try and
                   break my obsesion with you good folks on the 31st.for the tips and secrets i have got from you all,aero clonings the
                   best,i'll give you my last secret.hands rule of thumb,2hits inside=1hit outside,rule dosnt always work,rule wont work
                   everywhere,its just my guide.be very afraid of this word,conspiracy, it is all they need.yes merry meet

                   TOPIC - more blue
                   DATE - 13:54:24 12/21/99
                   FROM - loop

                   High-see: Forget the fancy genetics, Iíd say whatever your smoking is working just fine.

                   Evil_ the shift does seem to effect mostly the red. Also, the thing to remember about the classic series is that you are
                   limited to the bulbs you can use and need special gaskets for each bulb (I believe). Still there made far better and
                   should last a lifetime.
                   You can easily add more blue to your HPS lit rooms by simply adding an Actinic flo bulb.
                   40 watts of pure 420 nm blue for about $15.

                   TOPIC - lurking 2 of 2
                   DATE - 10:41:00 12/21/99
                   FROM - high-see

                   I'm still trying to get the candle to not burst the condom on insertion any thoughts?
                   dont humans breathe c0 as exaust bit not in substantial enough concentrations butI still converse regularly it is a
                   wiccan practise to sing or hum a light melody or special phrasing to 'mellow' them esecially when taking cuttings I feel
                   it calms the more nervous mums.

                   well all attack at will folks I've cast off the ohhhhh so very comforting cloak of anonimity now the intro is out of the way
                   Flame on.

                   Merry met,

                   TOPIC - lurking in the shadows of greatness 1of 2
                   DATE - 10:38:52 12/21/99
                   FROM - high-see

                   hello all,

                   I have been lurking in the shadws for a few days/weeks just kind evasdropping I prteffer osmossisising you know just
                   absorbing the greatness genious sheer genious obviously an accomplished grower of the mystical fruit but the genious
                   lies in not only somehow sidestepping all of the typically boisterous americans...sorry. are not all loudmouthed
                   bumbling idiots with no respect for any idea or opinion other than thier own. I swear.But also keeping everyone from
                   verbally assasinating one another a feat worthy of praise IMHO everyone here seems to know there subject fairly well
                   and healthy debate is always productive in a forum of this type challengng of ones ideas leads to more in depth
                   discussion with more detailed information for all and a sort of proof is in the sharing environment ... yes??

                   a word on clones
                   Grrrrrrrr I just want to go on record saying I/we are soooooooo very very jealous wwhen I/we read about all of these
                   outstanding hybrids that you all seem to have access to.It would be so nice to be able to cruise over to a bud's grow
                   andpick out a fe grapefruit or white widow cuttings go home and Voilla canopy of sweet tasting high resin yummies it
                   brings a tear to ones eye but it is hard to begrudge you guys and gals the sweet life/leaf but hey every once in awhile
                   when you load up some tasty astro puff think of us poor yanks huh?

                   TOPIC - Spectrum changes in water ...
                   DATE - 08:05:57 12/21/99
                   FROM - C.G.

                   Dr. E ...

                   If memory serves, sunlight passing through water loses portions of the red spectrum first ... the effect becomes more
                   pronounced the deeper you go ... ever do any scuba or snorkeling? I've seen notes in fishing publications that refer to
                   this effect as well. With the water coolant in those light fixtures only a few inches deep, I doubt there is very much loss,
                   but if you're really picky, the difference would be measurable with a spectrometer.

                   As for the puzzle, lets just let it drop ... I'm sorry I even brought it up ... give credit, or blame, to that Romberry ... .

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 07:55:54 12/21/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   Dr Evil - when I sold the last of my blueberry to Bong to help raise money for A1, I totally underestimated the rate which
                   those seeds were still selling. The next batch is still in the veg room and it won't be till march or april before they are
                   ready for release. So if your in a rush, Bong is the man, if you want the one stop shop, I guess blueberry will just have
                   to wait for a future date. Making a new version of bubbleberry does sound like fun though ;)

                   GWS - there are two basic reasons. First, the HPS simply gives off more light. Second, the red in the HPS spectrum
                   triggers the plant's flowering hormone, thus further amplifying the plant's desire to make flowers. For the serious
                   gardener, the HPS provides the plants with their "meat and potatoes" so to speak, the MH supplies the vitamins to
                   keep the plants healthy. For this reason, some of us try for a 2:1 ratio of HPS to MH. With a 1 light garden, HPS is the
                   wiser choice. A couple of Vancouver outfits are in a price war now, HPS bulbs and their kits are dirt cheap. Some links
                   are on the main page, link above.

                   TOPIC - M.H/HPS
                   DATE - 06:19:20 12/21/99
                   FROM - GWS

                   Question.i am flowering with a 1000 wttMH.because i could not afford a HPS..i have growen with a HPS in the past.i
                   have noticed that buds are not as big or fat than when i use a HPS..why is that.also i have co2..i do not have a
                   controller so i turn off fans and then i turn on co2 and let it blow over top of all plants for a min or two.i do this once a
                   day in the morning is that ok.plants are all looking great tons of buds but not as big and fat as i hoped i am at my 5th
                   wk of flowering now,,my strains are.blueberry.GWS..jack herer mix.and a blueberryxwhite widowxjack herer
                   mix..hopefully things will pick up in the last couple wks.
                   thanks for your time and hopefully someone can give me some advice..i grow in soil only using pro-mix and a powered
                   10-52-10 food from the hydro store.

                   TOPIC - water-cooled lights, etc.
                   DATE - 23:17:52 12/20/99
                   FROM - Dr. Evil

                   Hi All,
                   Loop: Thanks for the info. I was wondering if you thought the classic model was worth the extra money. I'd rather spend
                   a little extra now than replace them later. I guess the heat exchanger would only be worthwhile if you had a usable
                   body of water to dump heat into (like a swimming pool or something). I expected a total loss of UV spectrum from the
                   fixtures, but I wonder if it has a major effect on the blue spectrum. UV is easy enough to supplement with flourescents.

                   I'm planning on setting up an RO unit for water here, and I wonder if the waste water flow from it would be sufficent for
                   cooling the lights. The water here comes out of the tap at about 700 ppm TDS (you don't drink it, more like cut off a
                   chunk and chew it :) ). I know that RO units have a waste water stream that carries off the excess minerals that are
                   trapped by the membrane, but I'm not sure if the flow rate is high enough. I'll have to do some checking on that. I also
                   don't know if the highly mineralized tapwater here might have an effect on the fixtures. Probably not, as long as they
                   are cleaned between cycles. The washing machine soleniod is a great idea, I hadn't thought of that one. I'm looking
                   forward to seeing those pics.

                   Irish: Looking forward to hearing about your friend's sealed setup.

                   C.G. : I'm stumped, sounds like maybe you were at a Phish concert or something. While I enjoy their music on
                   occasion, I have no idea where they are touring.

                   Mr. Soul: The main reason I'm so concerned over the heat/ ventilation issue is that I now live in the same town m.g.
                   does (never heard if you live here also or not). In any event, you know how weather gets here. I'm trying to avoid running
                   so much ventilation that it sounds like a helicopter is hovering in my apartment, and having a window A/C unit
                   dedicated to one room, in a complex with 1000 apartments, none of which have separate window units, is liable to raise
                   some eyebrows. Just trying to come up with practical solutions to address both the growing environment and security.
                   Being at least somewhat familiar with the local environment, any comments you have would be very welcome.

                   Sb: glad you found my warning useful. I'd hate to see anybody wind up with mite problems from something so easy to

                   Vic: I notice ~RC's site is showing out of stock on your blueberry. Is there going to be more? I'm planning on placing an
                   order there after the holidays, and while I don't have immediate use for them, I thought I might get some to stockpile
                   until I have some room to work with them. I'm thinking of using them to cross with bubblegum for an updated
                   bubbleberry. I grew one F2 bubbleberry in my old setup, and while the couchlock high really wasn't my thing, a lot of
                   my friends liked it, and it yielded very well. I plan on trying out some romberry, and probably some of Soul's C-99
                   (although there are several other things that also sound very appealing).

                   All: hope i didn't miss anyone.
                   Be Safe
                   Dr. Evil

                   TOPIC - Soul mon
                   DATE - 22:26:10 12/20/99
                   FROM - Gentlemans Farmer

                   i did read it over at CW and i quess i didn`t catch the Hydro Farm Quantum The way it is written is sounds like the
                   trays are sitting in a 4x8 flood table perfectly! lol must be my simple mind.----To rehash my questions what did you use
                   for a table top for the 2 wks that it is in veg. ----and how is a H.F. Quantum`s (which is rw slabs with 4in.slabs on top{or
                   in?} with 1in. cubes in the 4in cubes-- am i right so far?) getting their water and nutrs.? TIA! I take it is a drip system?

                   TOPIC - loop
                   DATE - 17:18:34 12/20/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   hell no to the private talk loop, lets share what we can with all ;) thanks for the agricool description, looking forward to
                   seeing the pics. As for UV, I really don't have any definate thoughts yet. Except that the plants that are the most
                   vigorous under them are the stinkiest. As for potency, jury is still out, I have yet to notice any real trends. Mind you, I
                   have not grown a sinse crop since adding the UVb. Right now they are mounted on the wall at each end of the 4 by 5
                   room, but I would rather mount them directly on each end of the aircooled hood that is on a mover moving 18".
                   However, room is 4 feet wide exactly and is too tight for flo fixture to move back and forth without getting hung up. Next
                   time I build a room, it will be 50" wide, haha.

                   TOPIC - tomatoes for the defense
                   DATE - 17:12:58 12/20/99
                   FROM - stemmage

                   here's an addy I bookmarked but I thought it was a joke since I saw no discussion on it


                   oh yeah, there is even an offer for free seeds if you request before 1/1/2000

                   bon apetit

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 16:35:42 12/20/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   Hey Cowboy, where's that thick skin you cow pokes are known for ;) Ya ain't getting deleted that easy, haha.

                   Say, got an interesting email, does anyone here have any input or advice?

                   "This may seem rather strange, but I ran across your web page when doing a search for "THC tomatos." I work for a
                   defense attorney who has a client that is on probation (has to abstain from marijuana use) and has had a revocation of
                   his probation come down because of testing postive for THC. His "defense" is he ate THC tomatos, and that he got the
                   recipe from the internet. I have been unable to use the web site address he gave me for this "recipe," and thought I
                   would ask you if you know of such a thing.

                   Thanks for your time,


                   TOPIC - water-cooled babble (long post...sorry)
                   DATE - 16:19:25 12/20/99
                   FROM - loop_hole

                   evil and others
                   My water-cooled set up is based on the agri-cool pro (the unit made of polycabonate sp?). I constructed my own
                   reflectors to enable me to mount 1 ń1000w HPS (hortilux) and 1-uncooled 400w mh horizontally nose to nose. My
                   reflectors are shaped in a slight V (as opposed to the usual ^) because I run a stadium lighting set up. In my room I
                   only have 5-½' headspace total so all my water quick release fittings had to be changed to 90-degree elbows to save
                   space and to run my lights in series. This is a problem to make sure theyíre tight but still face the correct direction.
                   The other problem was that the material I used for my reflectors was slightly thinner than the one agri-cool made and
                   had to make small shims between the intake/outlet fittings and lens so they wouldnít leak. A real pain to set up but
                   have had no problems since. On the pro unit, the fittings screw directly into the tapped polycarbonate body so you
                   want to be real careful not to strip these. Iíve been thinking of re-tapping and installing stainless heli-coils to save any
                   problems but the replacement lens is only about $100. Really, if I were to do it again I would probably spring for the
                   classic model (glass and machined aluminum. More money but built to last.

                   Other problems in set up was to secure the hoses to enable them to work on movers. Got it working well but again, if I
                   was to do it a gain I would just add more lights. I only move my light about 14-16î and it was a real pain to set up but
                   works well now.

                   The system is hooked up as follows. Water in goes through a 0.1 micron carbon filter, then through a 25 psi dropping
                   regulator, then through and flow adjustment valve then through a washing machine solenoid (connected to the light
                   cycle timer) then through the lights and then down the drain. For 2-1000 watt light my flow is just over ½ litre per
                   minute and here in eastern Canada that comes out to $5 a month for water. In the shop where I purchase them, they
                   run water to water heat exchanger and a circulating system. They used more water to waste through the exchanger
                   than I do and were constantly fighting algae problems. I have a very slight algae problem (barely visible and I wash the
                   lens (in place, on the reflectors) with a little dish soap and H2o2 after ever crop. Takes no time and they wash up

                   I suspect light losses of about 20% and with a slight shift in spectrum. If every being equal, I suspect your yield to
                   decrease by 20% but because of my mixed spectrum and moving them my yield has been just fine.
                   In a 300 cubic foot room/box, my temps when running continuous ventilation is slightly on the low side (75 degrees) but
                   when running c02 and venting 6 minutes every hour my temps and plant tops is a perfect 85. I use lots of small floor
                   fans to keep thing constantly moving. The plastic lens are cool to the touch. The overheating cut off switch works

                   UV and water-cooled. Iím sure almost no UV will pass through the water jacket. Iím not sure how much UV a standard
                   mount hps has but I suspect not much either. I get my UV through the 400 mhís. I did buy 2 true UVb medical type
                   bulbs that I intended to use on the reflectors but my bulbs are 4í long and my reflector only 3í. Because of my limited
                   space and the hassle I had hooking up my lights in the first place I decided not to install them. Kind of waiting to her
                   feedback from Vic on his UV experiments before I create a lot of work for my self. So Vic, what happening?

                   It might be hard to visualize my set up but I have some great pictures (in a plant free room) that will make it all clear. Iíll
                   try to get them scanned this week and will post them at CW. I have some pictures of my room full of plants but Iíll only
                   send them to anyone that Iíve had communication with via private e-mail. Just ask, you know who you are.

                   Sorry for the long post.
                   Vic, should we take this private?

                   TOPIC - please delete post below
                   DATE - 16:15:12 12/20/99
                   FROM - poster boy

                   please delete the post below as it was posted before cowboy realized his info wasnt valid.

                   TOPIC - rx and sea of green
                   DATE - 15:32:45 12/20/99
                   FROM - cowboy

                   Dude,the sea of green method was and is a widely distributed technique.I believe their is even a video for sale that
                   outlines and details all the facts....only problem that i have heard about the system is the massive number of plants
                   that in the USA will get you a massive number of years in prison if you get nabbed.I believe in the USA the federal
                   sentenceing guidelines go by how many "plants" in a grow wether its a 3 inch cut with no roots or a bush.I was
                   referring to ot1 growers assoc.friends
                   who somehow achive those massive yields.I believe that was explained earlier in that the assoc. uses 12 to 14 week

                   TOPIC - Hydro
                   DATE - 13:07:38 12/20/99
                   FROM - Soul

                   Gentleman Farmer_~

                   I don't flower on the ebb/flood table.

                   I described the set-up @ BG Help Desk (cannabisworld.com) if you want to read it.

                   TOPIC - Soul
                   DATE - 08:36:06 12/20/99
                   FROM - Gentlemans Farmer

                   wellll suck me dry and call me dusty!! you have changed to hydro? let me pick myself off the floor LOL! ----i`m doing a
                   aero- floodtable comparsion right now. first time in a floodtable, what did you use for a top for your flowering girls and for
                   your clones. I used mylar but found too much light getting into the root area for what i like. i`m using 4in rw cubes
                   sitting on the bottom off the table. Some like to use grow rocks also but i skipped on that one. Trying to make things
                   easier not harder lol! But out of this fooling around with the flood tables i can see a better way lol ----aero/tables
                   heheheee next time!

                   so a question that i put fourth----has anyone played with aero/tables yet?--- i can see a much larger root space for the
                   roots to do their thing than pipes or gutters or square tubing. bigger roots=bigger plants

                   TOPIC - exhaust
                   DATE - 08:00:19 12/20/99
                   FROM - Gentlemans Farmer

                   One of the best grows i had was when i added a extra light and things got hot. The exhaust was on all the time and it
                   was very inclosed. Had to bounce the intake off the wall then dirrect it right back to the lights as to try and cool them
                   down. The stadium effect( V ) grow was bathed in fresh air constantly. When i messed with it and opened the V into
                   one long bleacher effect ( / ) the fresh air only reached the first half of the plants. I thought that a good fan and the
                   exhaust at the other end would "flow" the fresh air through the other half of the girls. End product was the first half had
                   a noticable differance in size. Ot1`s data and every ones thoughts on this subject of co2 just confirms what i have seen
                   with me own eyes, thanks dudes+dudettes great thread!

                   My answer was to put in 2 fresh air inlets and BEEF up the exhaust! Also making my room as small as possible,
                   easier to contol heat and humid in a smaller confined area than one huge open area. think hanging mylar/roller binds or
                   the step better, nice light office dividers if ya have the room of course(dreaming) . So my thought is, always intruducing
                   fresh air has been getting my co2 level up when the heat and lights come on and using that extra heat and light that
                   Vic is talking about to it`s fullest by keeping the co2 as heavy as it is outside at that given day. To keep from blowing
                   cold air on the girls, i bounce off a wall first then throw it all over the place with fans. My girls don`t have tiny stocks, lol

                   rx can i take a stab, i think Vic was on the right track but just sniffin down the wrong trail! lmao!----your plants are
                   looking great before you are adding the co2 and then they mess up? the addition of the co2 is making your plants want
                   to get up and boogie but then you are not supplying them with enough food and/or water. But thats how this simple
                   farmer thinks, then again that post was to far back to remember what the main question was lol "side effects"

                   TOPIC - cowboy's query re massive yields
                   DATE - 03:01:30 12/20/99
                   FROM - rx

                   About two years ago, a special supplement to the NY times concerning our subject, described a technique developed
                   by insiders in NYC called "sea of green", using 1kw and a rockwool hydro set up with cuttings set very close togeather
                   ( 3 or 4 inch centers) and which forced flowering while the plants were still very short, reputedly delivered the massive
                   yields you mentioned, in a very brief period. There was a pic showing the set up. I never tried it and did not keep the
                   paper. I'd like to know if you develop further info on this. Happy holidays to all!

                   TOPIC - O'Crustys'
                   DATE - 01:39:58 12/20/99
                   FROM - -~

                   'ears to all ...

                   TOPIC - procrastination..hehe
                   DATE - 22:49:04 12/19/99
                   FROM - irish

                   of course, all procrastination. well, we are gonna have to race on those pics. if you keep putting it off like me, then i
                   may send YOU a pic... LOL

                   happy holidays all.

                   will be talking to a friend tomorrow that runs a fully closed system. uses the ac as dehumidifier, i think co2 injection.
                   the room sounds like vic and his clones, "i just don't touch em"... well, more details tomorrow.

                   cg~ i just couldn't name any event my way that would "pinpoint you"... hehe

                   TOPIC - MrSoul/Ot1/rx
                   DATE - 21:45:34 12/19/99
                   FROM - Strider

                   MrSoul.......seems like I remember you toying with the idea of going to an air
                   conditioned set up a few months back..?
                   I run a little conditioned
                   system...basicly out of necessity. My grow is a converted feed/tack room.
                   Temps here are too high, too long. To use fans only. limiting..when and how
                   many grows are available a year..

                   Based on OT1's advice that, a small room would suffer serious CO2 depletion
                   as plants matured without near contant venting. I did some foot/finger work
                   and he's right... I Inject CO2 to maintain a level of 400 to 500 ppm in my
                   grow and vent every 30 min. CO2 use is kept minimal and the plants get
                   what they need. when outside temps drop consistantly to below 50. I will
                   switch to a 125v. thermostat to bring on the fans to cool the room and
                   shut down the CO2 till warmer weather. :-)
                   rx.... I'm telling you
                   man...shell out for a hydrofarm .2 to 2 cu.ft hr injector, a couple of 20lb
                   CO2 bottles and a timer. its hassel free... Even if you dont live near a metro
                   area bottles and refills can be obtained thru your local welder, convience
                   store, ect. Without attracting attention. you home brew...and have an
                   aquairium....refills are 11.00 to 15.00 U.S. Set up runs about 500.00 I brew
                   and have carboys and all the trappings but, its such a hassel dealing with all
                   that water weight and sugar every week... esp if you can't drink the end
                   product....grow temps are to high for brewing....just MHO........

                   me take the oportunity to thank you and the rest for the advice I have
                   recieved on this board. It has proved to be sound. my grow is basicly
                   healthy...and I'm happy :-)....plenty to work on...I still cant clone worth a
                   F**K....:-). or run this damn word processor

                   TOPIC - Just for the record ...
                   DATE - 19:38:02 12/19/99
                   FROM - C.G.

                   I have never grown indoors. However, I do find it a very interesting subject. Every container garden has some issues in
                   common, no matter what the crop.

                   As much as I enjoy growing the herb, my family & home have a much higher priority. Due to the forfiture laws, an
                   indoor grow, even a very small one, is just too great a risk.

                   As for outdoors, well ... that's another story. Rest assured I've been out there and back.

                   I'll be sending Vic a sort of curriculum vitae, just to clear things up a bit. My paranoia level is quite high, and there's no
                   need to pull rank in public.

                   irish is on the right track, but it will take more than a grasp of the obvious ... .

                   How many folks abstain for several days to cleanse the palate before sampling a new strain?

                   Just curious.

                   TOPIC - Irish
                   DATE - 17:10:44 12/19/99
                   FROM - sb

                   Hey Bud
                   I haven't been able to load my camera software because of a faulty $15 floppy drive.What took so long you ask? Dunno
                   really, guess that floppy isn't very important anymore.hehe
                   Problem is fixed and I've got new CO clones in the box along with some other yummies currently in flower(p50 x p50,
                   a13, genius, UW,JH x Williams wonder a skunk specimen and more on the way).I'll have some various pics soon,
                   including some 200x gland shots. If I can only find the disc I'll have the intelplay digi Microscope running .

                   I don't mean to sound rude...genuinely(sp?) curious.

                   TOPIC - hey sb...
                   DATE - 15:25:55 12/19/99
                   FROM - irish

                   CG does not grow pot, that's illegal, ask about romberry pumpkins, or skunk squash... hehe.

                   did you ever find that cali o picture?

                   my guess on location, sounds like it is an event with lots of "free pot", so a concert, is the dead still on tour?..

                   TOPIC - Einstien Oil
                   DATE - 14:57:45 12/19/99
                   FROM - The_Reaper

                   I am trying this new stuff called einstien oil.it is suspost to sterilze the mite so they cannot not reproduce and end up
                   dying.i have been using it for about 7-10 days and i do believe it is doing something i cannot find a live mite when i
                   checked today and some eggs look dries or something.has any one else used this stuff and if so what results did you
                   get,,any info on how to destroy these devil bastards will be greatful
                   The reaper

                   TOPIC - Dr.Evil
                   DATE - 12:34:04 12/19/99
                   FROM - sb

                   Dude, thanks for the heads up on the mite thing.It hadn't crossed my mind and I'm scheduled to volunteer at a tree
                   sales lot this afternoon. I've been mite free for only about 4-5 months and all I can think now is "WHEW".

                   Just curious...do you grow pot?

                   funny how we all grow the best isn't it? No really I mean it.hahaha
                   I'll put my buds up against ANYBODY in the quality department as would many on these boards.The act of growing a
                   completely healthy/productive plant is not very difficult.It's the tweaking for that extra 20% or so that lead to many of
                   the difficulties that people experience.IMO.

                   Some may have better genetics, but thats a horse of a diff feather isn't it.

                   TOPIC - CO2
                   DATE - 09:51:37 12/19/99
                   FROM - MrSoul

                   I too have never read any credible accounts by a respected grower claiming CO2 improved anything DRAMATICALLY.

                   In my own experience, I've found that any room in which one places sufficient HID lighting to grow a lb or more needs
                   essentially CONSTANT ventilation to control the heat...sucking OUT the CO2!

                   So what do you guys do...use recirculating air conditioners along with the CO2 enrichment systems? Or do you grow
                   in a basement in Fairbanks, AK?


                   TOPIC - CO2 - UV-B - etc.
                   DATE - 09:48:33 12/19/99
                   FROM - C.G.

                   Vic: You're probably quite right about circulating fans being the most efficient way to make best use of whatever volume
                   of CO2 is in the air, whether fresh or not. The added benefit would be the slight stress that this breeze puts on the
                   plants, forcing them to act more like "real" outdoor plants and expend a little more energy on the stems and stalk. It's
                   always looked a little weird to see indoor grows full of stakes and strings holding up the plants. There's always going to
                   be a tradeoff whenever we diverge from the "natural order". But then again, maybe it's just an outdoor gardeners
                   peculiar predjudices ... I've never given a second thought to using cages around my tomatos.

                   Which brings us to the use of water-cooled lights. I suspect that there is a trade-off here that hasn't been addressed.
                   While the build-up of heat is always going to be a problem when using HID lights, these water cooled units probably
                   lower the amount of available UV to about zero. If the Dutch growers have skewed their breeding with the use of lights
                   with glass coverings, as has been suggested in previous posts, sending the light through water would seem to be
                   making matters worse.

                   We're lookling forward to the results of those UV-B studies.

                   Dr. Evil : Nice try on the puzzle, but you're off by hundreds and hundreds of miles, as the crows flies, and even farther
                   via Interstate highways since there's no direct path. Follow your ears. Actually, there was no prior intent to put obscure
                   clues in that message, but after having written it, we realized that they were in there and figured "what the hey". It went
                   completely against the grain of our usual paranoia, but maybe we were still loaded. It wouldn't be the first time we woke
                   up stoned, ( or the first time commiting a collosal blunder in such a state either. )

                   Just what does Santa have packed in that pipe anyway? What's his favorite strain?

                   Just curious.

                   TOPIC - Hear hear Vic!
                   DATE - 09:26:41 12/19/99
                   FROM - MrSoul

                   I can dig the attitude Vic...a man's home is his castle IMO.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 08:42:38 12/19/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   rx - your are wrong to assume this page is about free speach. An emotional subject for some, but I will not be shy
                   about saying that I practice censorship. You see, this is my home and I have a right to choose what I listen to in my
                   home, and how my guests are treated. I can fully appreciate how this will not suite everyone, that's not a problem,
                   there are other venues available such as Cannabis World's Jungle room.

                   Some of us growers are old and crusty bud and would like to debate and challange each other without taking things to
                   a personal insult level, that's all.

                   Dr Evil - thanks for the warning!!

                   TOPIC - reply to peacness
                   DATE - 02:36:33 12/19/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Thanks for your concern. I am fine - in fact I enjoyed myself, maybe too much. I never get mad. Everybody knows thc
                   reduces testesterone in older males to a point they can't sustain anger. Hang loose, rock on!

                   P.s. to every one - my ventilation is great. I have a cyclone in a closet. Two fans exaust the air from 6'x6' closet.The
                   door remains open when the lights are on Absolutly neccessary to prevent heat build up. I water and feed on the lower
                   margin to avoid over feeding and watering problems. Build up of salts is not a problem.Souring soil is not a problem. I
                   have never experienced pot that would'nt burn such as I have read on this board. I'm going to type this real slow and
                   maybe you will get it - these are healthy, vigorus, robust plants that deliver the highest quality product.You would envy
                   them if you saw them. Heartfelt, I am sorry you don't believe that.

                   TOPIC - vic and managment
                   DATE - 01:12:38 12/19/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Dear Vic: You sound like you are the manager of this board. Congratulations on the picture in the header. It is what
                   brought me here for a visit. Reminds me of my own stuff I enjoyed the argument with popeye and ot1. After reading their
                   recent posts, they seem none the worse for the wear. Apparently, you are the sensitive one. I suggest the threshold of
                   free discussion starts with kiss my a**. In the context whereused it was intended to convey the meaning "take it or
                   leave it", and was not an actual solicitation. If anyone took it literally,i apologize. While you claim to encourage open
                   and free discussion you shy away from controversy - argument - disagreement - verbal brick bats. What I know of
                   growers is they are a pretty crusty lot. Boys will be boys but they can take it - let free speech reign. Look at the intrest
                   this little controversy stired up and favorable comments, too. I'll bet your hit counter soared. Come on, do'nt be such a
                   prude! Frankly I can't say whats ok and whats not. Its hard to follow the rules when they are not clear. Please do delete
                   my posts. I think some editng would improve the site. Thank you for the service

                   TOPIC - Just heard on news a minute ago...
                   DATE - 23:21:51 12/18/99
                   FROM - Dr. Evil

                   Hi again all,
                   I was half listening to the news as I was sending my previous message, when a story came on about people bringing
                   pests into their houses on Christmas trees. A tree saleman interviewed discounted the whole thing, except he said
                   most of the trees are carrying SPIDER MITES. You all may want to check out your trees, if they are anywhere near
                   your grow. That could really mess up your Christmas.
                   Dr. Evil

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 23:10:52 12/18/99
                   FROM - Dr. Evil

                   Hi all,
                   Loop: What I'm mainly interested in with the water-cooling is, how effective are they, what model are you using, what
                   kind of heat exchange (exchanger, run to waste, etc.), any changes you'd make to the system if you had to do it all
                   over, that sort of thing. I know that is a pretty involved list of questions, but I'm trying to avoid re-inventing the wheel as
                   much as possible. Now there are a few different models of these things out there, and I'd rather get the input of
                   someone who has actually used them before laying out the cash. I haven't heard anyone say anything bad about them,
                   and all the data in the advertising seems sound, but it usually does. Just trying to do my homework.

                   OT1: I suppose a change of air every couple of hours wouldn't hurt me. Still, I think a semi-sealed system, built as I
                   described, but with the occasional change of air might be best for my current situation. I suppose part of my paranoia
                   comes from the noise level of my old system, which was admittedly substandard. I used to cringe every time the thing
                   came on. This time, I'm not going to get any plants going until I've got my setup as close to the way I want it as I can
                   make it. It may add some time to getting things going, but a little peace of mind is worth a lot.
                   PS, I'm wondering if you are considering cubing your ES clone, especially since you already have an F1 to backcross
                   with. The ES sounds like something really special, particularly to those of us that like sativas.

                   All: On the great CO2 controversy, one thing to be pointed out is that manufacturing CO2 by fermentation is even less
                   efficient than the chemistry suggests, because most strains of yeast stop fermenting at about 10-12% alcohol level, so
                   most of the sugar goes unfermented. Even though some strains of yeast will go longer (champange yeasts), none
                   exceed about 18% alcohol. If someone found one that would reach 90%, you could make a fortune, as it would do
                   away with the need for distilleries to make concentrated alcohol. That being said, I'm inclined to think rx's results are
                   largely due to the fact that his setup, and possibly contributed to by altitude, is suffering from insufficient ventilation. If
                   the fermentation setup works for him, great, although I think there are better ways to get there. Just my opinion.

                   C.G. : on your riddle you posted earlier as to location, I'd like to venture a wild guess-- Knoxville, based on the phrase
                   "volunteer bowls". The semi-rural college town sounds like my old home. Hint: War Eagle (if my guess is anywhere
                   close you might get that one).
                   Happy Holidays all,
                   Be Safe
                   Dr. Evil

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 22:40:42 12/18/99
                   FROM - hand

                   supercharger,more air goes in than comes out,pressure should increase.high pressure feels better than low pressure.
                   do different gasses separate at high speed maybe?if so you could use exhast air speed to increase co2 levels force
                   feed. do plants grow faster under high pressure outside?

                   TOPIC - Wow, this page was busy today!!
                   DATE - 21:39:04 12/18/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   rx - I hear ya and I fully realized you were not the first to cast a stone. But the stones kept getting bigger and I had to
                   draw a line someplace. You and Popeye are new aliases so I just wanted to communicate with you before I started
                   deleting posts. The others have been around long enough to why they were deleted if I decide to start, hehe. Haven't
                   deleted in months and I really like it that way, was just hoping for some help from you in keeping it that way. Don't
                   worry about anybody believing you, who cares about that. Just relay your observations the best you can, that's all
                   anyone can ask of ya. Some time ago I was involved in a dolomite lime debate where basically everyone here would
                   say I was wrong. No biggie, many of us learned something in that exchange regardless of who was right. And that's
                   what we're here for right?

                   Anyway, back to your CO2 observations. The more I read from you, the more it all makes sense, but not for the
                   reasons you suspect. Everything you say clearly suggests increased plant respiration and photosynthesis by adding
                   CO2. Not sure what level your understanding of plant physiology is, so please forgive me if I'm saying anything you
                   already know. But as plants absorb CO2, they also absorb H20. And as they absorb additional water, they absorb
                   more of the nutes in the medium so the drying you are seeing may be from a previously undetected overfeeding
                   problem? Or salt buildup problem? Speeding up the plants has a way of amplifying problems. And the description of
                   your plants prior to the CO2 addition suggests what others have suspected, that your ventilation was inadaquate.
                   Anyway, all in all, I too have seen the benefit of adding CO2, just trying to explain the reason for it. Peace dude.

                   Chronic Man - that soil additive you mentioned for increasing CO2 reminds me of a CO2 tablets discussion at
                   Cannabis.com a while back. They may help the plants in various ways, but I very seriously doubt that the benefits
                   could be coming from added CO2. However, this is about learning new ideas, so please, any info you or anyone can
                   dig up, I'm all ears. BTW glad those romberries are starting to work for ya, hope the aroma isn't noiding you out too
                   much, haha.

                   popeye - appreciate your info, but please back off as well dude. Comments such as yours will kill a discussion rather
                   than enhance it. It would be cool for you, rx and the rest of us to feel comfy continuing putting our ideas out. Right or
                   wrong, the discussions will help us all learn.

                   pizza - huh? me no understand dude.

                   OT - was that an ESB post?? LOL. Keep it coming bud, I haven't used the delete button in months, don't plan to start
                   with you ;)

                   CO2 revisited - CG and others, best way I have found to improve the efficiency of the CO2 in the grow room is to add
                   lots of air movement to the room. This can easily compensate for lower CO2 levels as long as the air is frequently
                   exchanged. ;)

                   TOPIC - Can CO2 be improved?
                   DATE - 17:08:46 12/18/99
                   FROM - C.G.

                   My eyes glaze over when presented with a combination of chemical formulas and mathematics. But, athough most of
                   the information is lost on me when presented in that form, it's great that we have posters who can rattle it off. ( even
                   while under the spell of the weed from hell )

                   So ... it looks like the effective
                   use of outside ventilation is less hassle, and has lower costs, than any form of CO2 supplementation. The next
                   question that comes to mind is: Can we alter that air to make it better, or make the existing levels of CO2 more
                   available or usable to the plant?

                   Is there any way to change a volume of air in such a way that all of the CO2 is in a dextro-rotary form? I suspect it can't
                   be done in an efficient way, but this would effectively double the amount of CO2.

                   Would air filtration, or the elimination of certain gasses, make a difference? Since RO water is so good for plants,
                   wouldn't the equivalent form of air be likewise usefull?

                   What about negative ions? How do they affect the plant?

                   Is there some gaseous equivilent of a wetting agent that could make the gas more missible and easier for plants to

                   I remember seeing a display of a pattented, "coherent", form of water at Disney World. The water ( H2O ) was
                   processed in such a way that it held its shape when squirted into the air. As I recall, it was something along the lines
                   of a "polorized water". I wonder, is there an equivilent form of CO2, and what effect would it have on the plant? How
                   would this type of water effect a plant?

                   Has anyone tried some of the other techniques that have been discussed here in the recent months? There have been
                   no grow reports on the use of citric acid & raw sugar as a water supplement. Has anyone tried playing soothing music
                   for their plants?

                   Just curious.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 13:42:07 12/18/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   Shit I just read through my post sorry about it I tend to ramble on when stoned! All sorry about that! Vic hit the delete
                   button if its to boring. Ot1

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 13:22:09 12/18/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   rx man are you hard to please! Part of my life I was a professional gardener and part a qualified electrician, I am a work
                   with my hands man, Iím not an intellectual or science based person but I reckon Iím a dam good gardener! As I said
                   before this site is like a virtual think tank, ideas get thrown in here if they are interesting they get taken to bits, chewed
                   over, more info gets put in and we all learn out of it and so it goes on untill its done! So for you and others who want to
                   use fermentation===>
                   In the simplest terms, alcoholic fermentation consists of the conversion of sugar to ethyl alcohol and carbon
                   dioxide.Chemically this can be written as follows:

                   Sugar = C6 HI2 O6 fermentation ==> 2 CO2[carbon dioxide] + 2 C2 H5 OH [ethyl alcohol]

                   If each molecule is represented as a gram, The atomic weight of hydrogen is 1 and oxygen 16 then H x 2 + O = H2O =

                   [2 x 1] + [1 x 16] = 18. ie 2 grams hydrogen + 16 grams of oxygen produces 18 grams of water. To apply the same
                   principle to the fermentation equation all that needs to be known is the atomic weight of carbon; this is 12.
                   So C6 H12 O6 = (6 x 12) + (12 x 1) + (6 x 16) = 180 grams >through fermentation gives you 2 CO2 + 2C2 H5 OH This
                   gives you
                   2 x [12 +(2 x 16]{= 88 grams of carbon dioxide} + 2 x[(2 x 12)+(5 x 1)+16+1]{= 92 grams of ethyl alcohol} So a 180
                   grams of sugar will, if fermentation is complete, produce 88 grams. of carbon dioxide and 92 grams. of ethyl alcohol,
                   This represents just under 49% of the original sugar weight as CO2. Now complete fermentation is near impossible no
                   matter how good the nutrient/ph balance of the fermenting must is! Generally speaking 90% is done in the first 3 weeks
                   the remainder takes months! So you would be pretty safe to use 44% of the sugar weight as a basis to work to ie 10
                   lbs of sugar will give 4.4 lbs of CO2. Well rx thats about it for fermentation and CO2 I know its only junior school stuff
                   but there are phdís and a nuclear physicist that come here, Iím sure they will kick me in the "Kiss my ass" bits if Iíve
                   got it wrong!

                   Plants can only grow by using light as an energy source to make sugar from CO2! Its called photosynthesis and is part
                   of the carbon cycle! From this stems all life on earth! Plants absorb CO2 from the atmosphere use light to split the
                   components into carbon and oxygen molecules. The oxygen is expelled and the carbon made into the building blocks
                   of the plant. The bud you smoke was made from the the CO2 the plants absorbed from the atmosphere not the soil,
                   water or come to that nutrients in the soil!

                   rx having read your final comments on CO2 the above and what I have written before should help improve your grow
                   weights and the health of your plants if you really look at it with an open mind! The thing that beggars a question! Have
                   you got a ventilation system with an input and extract fans??

                   1) do you grow the esb in soil or hydro?
                   ==> The whole system is with organic soil based compost!
                   2) I grow in rockwoool on an ebb'n flow table, what compensations should i make?
                   ==> I donít think you need to make any
                   3) Do all of the various esb phenotypes (from seed) each yield impressively? (55 oz per 1k (lick))?
                   ===> In the seed generation plants produced from 37 to 52 grams of dried bud they were grown at 2 plants to the sq ft
                   the overall average was 47 grams!
                   4)do you grow out the esb as (a) a single cola(see of green) or as (b) multitopped?
                   I bred it for a close single cola form, it has a strong stem! May be try some multy headers in the clone generation if you
                   find a keeper!
                   5) what is the purpose of switching the light cycle to 11/13, as opposed to 12/12?
                   ==> It has a lot of sat in its make up 11/13 helps them to settle into flowering mode quicker!
                   6) why do you then revert to 12/12 after the 11/13 cycle?
                   ==> It suits the other vars in the grow with more indica in them. I usually have 6 to 10 vars in a grow each having its
                   own profile, they are set out by height to make a stadium effect!
                   Take a look at webbies there are a couple of picks and info there as well!

                   loop_hole Yes I trim out side branches at 2 nodes but leave enough sidies to fill the canopy.

                   Additional info from feedback Iíve had that sort of goes with my own experiences. It produces slightly more males than
                   fems. There seem to be two finish times between 7 and 8 weeks and 10 weeks! The form is the same with both! The
                   earlier ones are lighter yielders the later ones have a similar stone but are much stronger with more up! I have had 2
                   hermies reported out of about 200 femís. They like a lot of light and in my opinion the high is better if there is some
                   halide in the lighting mix when flowering.

                   Dr. Evil I did read somewhere about using CO2 and a sealed room environment! I canít remember exactly but I think
                   there were serious probs with a build up of toxic gas byproducts! If the area isnít to large the odd few minís every
                   couple of hours to change the air canít be that bad! Portable Air con units have 4 to 6 inch wall terminals can be used
                   for cooling and heating. Some of the silent fans are so quiet now apart from the air noise! A meter of acoustic ducting
                   silences that as well, one of these to an air con terminal shouldn't look suspicious! When I say quiet I mean quiet a
                   desk fan on low speed is way louder.

                   Vic Iím still half way through writing I just keep getting diverted LOL! As to yields summertime I tend to do mid 50ís and
                   winter time low 60ís per k.

                   All the best Ot1

                   TOPIC - correction
                   DATE - 12:35:20 12/18/99
                   FROM - loop

                   Chronic man- should read "not the best one i have..."

                   TOPIC - my last post to rx
                   DATE - 12:30:25 12/18/99
                   FROM - loop da loop

                   Rx-The fact that your plants are stunted, drooping or dying without co2 indicates that you have a serious problem in
                   your system (and that doesnít matter what elevation your at). What ot1 has been saying to you is that you probably
                   have a ventilation problem and the co2 is a band aid solution. It like if you said that you could gain 15 lbs. of body
                   weight by drinking 10 glasses of water a day. We would all call bullshit but what you failed to tell us is that you were
                   dying of dehydration. You in fact would (are)be telling the truth. What weíve all been trying to say to you is that youíve
                   probably have larger issues to deal with. Deal with them or donít, we are just truly trying to help.
                   Also, the yellowing and mottling of your leaves is probably due to the excessive humidity from your fermentation
                   system and lack of ventilation/extraction (I am however only speculating). If your leaves die, they can not use the co2
                   for photosynthesis.
                   Although I find you somewhat annoying (sorry), I do have to thank you for kick starting this board. Did you ever post
                   under the names green avenger, smiley or jay smith?

                   One last comment on co2. As Vic said earlier, he is always surprised but the poor use of light in grow rooms. I believe
                   that for some, the increased yield (beyond 20%) with co2, may be do to the rapid growth filling out the canopy more
                   completely. Similar results could be obtained by putting more plants in, changing pruning styles or vegging longer
                   without co2. This is why I stated that if your not getting a gram per watt you have bigger things to worry about. A gram
                   per watt is just a standard I use for myself to let me know when Iíve got things worked out. This will vary from grower to

                   About those huge yields: 80 ozís = 5lbs not 6. Donít forget that the co-op members use mostly sats that are 12-14
                   weeks varieties. Outstanding yields by any standard. It is the same (yield wise) as getting 2 ½ lbs. out of a 7-week
                   strain, entirely do-able but still excellent. Do whatever works for ya.

                   Evil- what info do you want regarding the water-cooled. Effectiveness, maintenance, set up? Just ask
                   Iíve got some niffty photos of the set up Iíll post at cw next week.
                   I send that list I promised to you today.

                   Chronic man- I found shisk to be a medium to high yielder but best one I have. The leaves were unbelievably big
                   (12-14î) that didnít work all that in my preferred planting density. I also found the plant very ugly. That my sound like a
                   stupid reason to drop a plant but I like to have a cup of coffee and just watch the plants in the morning (good for you
                   people with SAD) and I couldnít stand those ugly beast.
                   The high was nice and in my set up I got about 50 grams per foot2. I still keep a clone alive but havenít grown it for a

                   Hope that helps

                   TOPIC - Pleasant Surprise
                   DATE - 10:54:05 12/18/99
                   FROM - C.G.

                   Yawn ... was out until the wee wee hours last night. At the conclusion of a wonderful evenings entertainment, a few
                   folks were hanging in back, sharing some herb. When asked what variety it was, their surprising reply was "Romberry".

                   This is one of the few times in recent memory when I've had the opportunity to sample a bud where a "brand name"
                   was given ( correctly or not ). The unburned bud smelled sweet and subtle, but in the dark there was no way to judge
                   the color or other visual elements. When hit with the fire, it went down smooth. Not a hint of harshness. Whether this
                   was a characteristic of the genes, the growers technique, or the cure, there was no denying the fine taste.

                   The folks with the bud didn't know if it had been grown indoors or out, and given the season, it could have been either.
                   The point of origin was evidently a semi-rural college town in another state.

                   Coming as it did on the heels of several other volunteer hits and a couple of beers, it was difficult to judge the quality of
                   the buzz, but it definitely wasn't the usual schwag that's often passed around at these events. We were able to function
                   quite well, or as well as could be expected, on the drive home.

                   So ... if nothing else, it seems that Vic's beans are getting around south of the border. My compliments to the chef!

                   PS: Just for the hell of it, the above message contains two hints by which the location of the evenings bachanal might
                   be deduced. Can you find them? Just curious.

                   TOPIC - Sorry...
                   DATE - 09:24:43 12/18/99
                   FROM - Popeye

                   Apologies to rx for that one...Indeed, I read it as 20km, instead of 20k. Talk about reading skills, heh heh. The rest still
                   stands, though. I'll leave this thread alone now, except for:
                   rx said: "...the exchange of sugar to co2 should be 1:1..."
                   Actually, 1 lb. of sugar produces .488 lbs (7.8 oz) CO2 and .513 lbs (8.2 oz) alcohol. :)

                   TOPIC - Miles
                   DATE - 09:04:40 12/18/99
                   FROM - Lurkin

                   Popeye, are you using Marlboro miles? Where I grew up (US) a mile is 5280 feet. Come to think of it a mile is 5280
                   feet in Canada too, they just like to measure in kilometers instesd. 12.5 miles would be 66,000 feet!!! 20,000 feet is
                   3.78 miles!! There is noticably less O2 in the air in Denver, Mexico City, and other high altitude cities. No special
                   instruments are needed to notice this. Just go for a vigorous walk and you'll be panting. Common sense tells me if
                   there is less O2, there's less CO2 and may account for rx,s results using CO2 suppliments. Just my .02 worth.

                   TOPIC - Errrr....Popeye
                   DATE - 08:49:31 12/18/99
                   FROM - KQ.

                   the "20k'(just over three miles)" that rx refers to is 20,000 feet, if you look very carefully. There is a foot abbreviation just
                   after the "k" which in this case means thousand. I believe kilometers would be abbreviated km.

                   TOPIC - Tying to be civil...
                   DATE - 07:47:27 12/18/99
                   FROM - Popeye

                   rx...I have to wonder about your reading comprehension. If you reread the data that I posted you may notice that I cited
                   my source; perhaps you should check it out instead of simply displaying your ignorance.
                   You may have noticed that those posters who actually use CO2 have reported essentially what I originally posted: CO2
                   supplementation may decrease total growth time, and will marginally increase yield.
                   Initially, you claimed (twice) that fermented CO2 more than doubles your yield. Then it was 30-50%, with better
                   potency and decreased odor and fungal disease. At best these were exaggerated claims, or incorrect conclusions, if
                   not out-right bullshit.
                   BTW, 20k is not "just over 3 miles". It is, in fact, almost 12.5 miles. Another mistake to go with all your others. So the
                   question is, where do YOU get YOUR information?

                   TOPIC - lighting
                   DATE - 05:39:22 12/18/99
                   FROM - pizza

                   my clones were transplanted into 2.5 gallon pots 18 days ago they are in #2 sunshine mix i have had them under 24hr
                   light since being transplanted.they are now 13" high under 2k lights on a tracker. i have to move soon so my question
                   is should i leave them under 24hr light till they hit 24" or go to 20on and 4 off or leave them on 24hr

                   TOPIC - Co2 some good info...
                   DATE - 05:32:30 12/18/99
                   FROM - chronic man

                   Wow..good to see some good input concerning CO2 usage. You know, I never used to use it, until a friend told me he
                   wouldn't go without using it. So I went out and spent around $450 for 2 20 pound CO2 bottles, a timer module from
                   Green Air, and a regulator. The first crop yielded about 15-20% more! And another great thing, it finished a week to ten
                   days earlier! So ever since then, I've gone with it.
                   A close friend saw how much earlier I was harvesting, and that alone sold him on CO2, but actually hes been trying
                   something called liquid CO2 that is added to the soil. It's being sold at a small grow shop/dive near the Aurora bridge in
                   Seattle called Hydro Tech. (Where the dog there always sniffs your crotch...hehe) The guy who owns the place tried to
                   sell me on it, and I think it was like carbon, and molasses, or some kind of similar mixture. He was trying to tell me
                   that the carbon/molasses mixture fooled the plant into believing that CO2 was being produced. I was kinda hesitant, so
                   I turned it down. However my friend swears by it. I was thinking of trying it on one or two plants, but I already use CO2,
                   so it might be kinda hard to tell. Has anyone else heard of this stuff? I'm sure if anyone was REALLY interested they
                   could call info and get the number and call the guy. I think his name is Richard. I'm not so sure about the stuff, it
                   sounds too good to be true to me, and it really doesn't make sense. But we are on the topic of CO2, so I thought I'd
                   bring it up.

                   The only thing I really don't like is having to fill those damn bottles. It costs around $45 for about ten days. That can get
                   expensive. I'm thinking about buying a propane powered setup. Theres only one thing about it, the flame in it makes me
                   nervous. Fire is the one thing that really scares me about all of that electricity being used, and having propane being
                   burnt sounds even worse. Do any of you have any experience with the larger CO2 generators? I'm thinking about a unit
                   that will cover up to about 250 sq ft. (a pretty big one) I know Green Air sells different sizes, and I was kinda thinking
                   about getting one that had some kind of way to measure the amount in the room.

                   Vic, I'm really happy with the Romberry, it has a real nice lemony smell, good quality with a good yield. A good
                   product. I'm also really impressed with Shishkaberry. It has a nice yield, and an awesome fruity smell. Both are top
                   quality. I tried to get some more Shishk, this time from Breeder Steve, but I'm not sure what his trip is, he never
                   returned my email, and I emailed him a few times. I got the Shisk last time from Cash Crops Sens, via Marc Emery,
                   and was kinda dissapointed with the male/female ratio. (1 damn female out of 11!!) So, I sent away for 30 more, figuring
                   I'm bound to find a better yielder than the one small female I got. Besides, considering that Steve is charging a
                   whopping $150, I figured I could buy 30 seeds from ME, and have a better chance at finding a keeper. I've already found
                   a keeper from the Rom, one that I've noticed is alot more pungent than the others.
                   Loop- What did you think of Shisk? Do you think it's a big yielder? From everyone I've heard from it is, and from the
                   rock hard nugs I can see why. I'm just hoping that I got a small female last time. The one thing I really like about it is
                   the short flower time. It was done at around 40 days! Pretty damn fast.

                   One more thing, what is this about 6 pounds with one 1k light? That sounds a little too good to be true. Let me know
                   how, and I'll save myself mucho dinero on the power bill.

                   Sorry to ramble,
                   cHrOnIc man

                   TOPIC - ot1's co2 experiment
                   DATE - 03:58:33 12/18/99
                   FROM - rx

                   This is my last word on co2.Ot1's co2 experiment is so at odds with my own experience, using the micky mouse
                   generator, over a period of ten or fifteen crops, i want to point out dissimuarlities not previously mentioned. Within a few
                   hours after introducing the generator to the grow closet, a marked improvement in the coindition of the plants can be
                   noted, drooping leaves pick up, the plants green up& if growingt has stalled. (usually a stall is what propels me into
                   action to set) the growing will recommence. With in a day all the fan leaves will begin to show damage. The damage is
                   best described as burning - motteling, spots, yellowing. Eventually, two or three weeks, the leaves are dead - brown
                   shrivled, hanging down - kaput. The buds and stems are doing fine. I attribute this leaf damage to co2 which seems to
                   have a burning and drying effect. I also note that co2 seems to create a condition that make the plants tolerate the very
                   high temperatures within an inch of the bulb.Ot1 has a walking around assumption that the plants absorb the co2 and
                   his ppm readings showing a reduction of co2 levels when the lights come on would seem to bear this out. I postulate
                   the effect of co2 is not to be absorbed but to create a drying condition which permits the plants to transpire more
                   efficiently. The co2 seems to suck moisture out of the buds and leaves and indeed water consumption soars from one
                   gallon to 1.5 gallon daily. This increased water consumption is the most marked and measuarble effect of using co2. I
                   do not immagine a ferment produces a great volume of co2. However the exchange of sugar to co2 should be 1:1 - ten
                   pounds of sugar, ten pounds of co2. During the peak of flowering (floresence), I try to have two generators in place and
                   bubbeling at full tilt. My generator vents directly into the rear of a six inch fan blowing over the tops. In a way the co2 is
                   supercharged. My crops are better than you seem to think.Any way thats what I wanted to tell you. You may not need
                   700 ppm or 1000 ppm to do the trick. To write this far has taken me 50 minutes. I don't have this kind of time to spend
                   on you. "Hasta lombego", as we say.

                   TOPIC - esb
                   DATE - 03:16:08 12/18/99
                   FROM - Peaceness

                   hey guys. this is some real good topic/conversation.

                   rx: you are OK man. this forum is conductive to learning and its all good to vent once in a while. we're all human, but
                   beleive me, everyone here is real friendly, nothing personal though. Glad you are around to post and such. stand tall
                   brother. :)

                   Hi OT1: i have decided that i will start the esb's. have just a few more questions before i get started:

                   1) do you grow the esb in soil or hydro?

                   2) I grow in rockwoool on an ebb'n flow table, what compensations should i make?

                   3) Do all of the various esb phenotypes (from seed) each yield impressively? (55 oz per 1k (lick)) ?

                   4)do you grow out the esb as (a) a single cola(see of green) or as (b) multitopped?

                   5) what is the purpose of switching the light cycle to 11/13, as opposed to 12/12?

                   6) why do you then revert to 12/12 after the 11/13 cycle?

                   Sorry for all the questions, i just want to follow it to the "t". dont want to miss any variables.will start tomorrow. thanks


                   p.s. do you have any knowledge of columbian skunk? just obtained a w.w hybrid of it through recent auction. just

                   TOPIC - vic high and vulgarity
                   DATE - 02:06:32 12/18/99
                   FROM - rx

                   I am a little tired of popeye in particular and ot1 calling me a liar. Honestly, i don't think their info is all that terrific.
                   Every assumption they have made about me is wrong and they rush to the damdest illogical conclusions I have ever
                   seen. Then they make up data from thin air to support their outrageous contentions rather than admit they are wrong
                   or, more often, just don't know. Rude for rude is my motto. It's the only way to get the attention of the self centered
                   know it all.

                   TOPIC - vic high and vulgarity
                   DATE - 02:05:39 12/18/99
                   FROM - rx

                   I am a little tired of popeye in particular and ot1 calling me a liar. Honestly, i don't think their info is all that terrific.
                   Every assumption they have made about me is wrong and they rush to the damdest illogical conclusions I have ever
                   seen. Then they make up data from thin air to support their outrageous contentions rather than admit they are wrong
                   or, more often, just don't know. Rude for rude is my motto. It's the only way to get the attention of the self centered
                   know it all.

                   TOPIC - popeye and 60 miles of homogenous atmosphere
                   DATE - 01:49:29 12/18/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Dear popeye- Your data filled post concerning atmospheric homogenity up to 60 miles is incredible. My guests here
                   from sea level find themselves gasping for breath and turning blue with the slightest exertion untill they acclimate
                   believe their condition is due to the thin air. At 20k'(just over three miles) human beans pass out and die if they don't
                   have o2 supplement. where do you find such information? I think you should check your sources and stop embarassing

                   TOPIC - CO2, etc.
                   DATE - 21:02:33 12/17/99
                   FROM - Dr. Evil

                   Hi All,
                   I'd like to comment on Popeye's data concerning Co2 concentrations at altitude. Both Popeye and Rx are right in a
                   way, depending on how you look at things. The ppm (concentration as a proportion of the total of all the gases
                   composing the air) is essentially unchanged at altitude. However, with increased altitude, the partial pressure (amount
                   of CO2 as a proportion of volume) drops to the same degree as do all the other gases in the atmosphere. IOW, the
                   parts per million are unchanged, just less millions of atoms. So this, along with ventilation issues, probably explains
                   the differences in results. HTH

                   OT-1: I find your results interesting concerning the drastic drop in CO2 levels with lights on. While I realized that plants
                   uses a lot of CO2, I didn't expect that much of a drop. The reason it piqued my interest was that I'm considering
                   attempting a sealed system (no ventilation). The system would use water-cooled lighting (eliminating the excess heat),
                   CO2 monitering and enrichment as necessary, and a dehumidifier to remove transpired water from the air. While a little
                   more expensive to start out, the system would eliminatea lot of security concerns (no infrared signature, no ventilation
                   noise, and easier to control odors). To an observer outside, the room would appear completely normal. Of the security
                   concerns I mentioned, vent noise would be the biggest, and your Co2 results indicate to me that I would need more
                   noisy ventilation than I'd be comfortable with under my new circumstances. Aside from security issues, I think this type
                   of setup could be done with less impact to the building it is used in (less necessity to cut through walls for duct work,
                   etc.). Comments?

                   Loop: Any comments you care to make on the water-cooled lights would be welcome, for the reasons listed above. The
                   idea of getting control of the growing environment without the need for noisy ventilation systems intrigues me.
                   As for the genetics you offered, I'm interested. If you could send me a list, I'd appreciate it greatly.

                   P.S. The e-mail screwup was a result of my not noticing that when my e-mail service was overhauled by the provider a
                   few months ago (when I was not using it much), they reconfigured the addressing script to put in the registered users
                   name into the return address. I should have caught that before. My bad. That explains why a few e-mails I've sent to
                   various people have gone astray (including one to you a couple months back). Whoops.

                   Anyway, be safe all
                   Dr. Evil

                   TOPIC - CO2
                   DATE - 19:18:02 12/17/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   rx - welcome to my humble abode dude. Your input is much welcome, especially if your ideas conflict with the norm.
                   Hard to learn if we all think the same ;) However, we try to keep the discussions on a slightly more civil level bud, and
                   avoid personal attacks such as "Kiss my ass". I appreciate your understanding dude. Popeye, ditto dude ;)

                   Ot - making up for lost time? LOL, It's really good to see you back in the saddle my friend. Missed ya :)

                   On rx's observations, I can see how he would observe what he did. I get to see alot of gardens here and there and it
                   always amazes me how most growers work with inadaquate ventilation and how many waste light. I think a modest use
                   of CO2 would very much help compensate for these two shortcomings and a grower could observe yield increases as
                   rx observed. The most obvious advantage would be as OT suggested, inadaquate ventilation. As for wasting light, I see
                   this on many levels. First, many gardens are way brighter than most plants can effectively use. CO2 can help a plant
                   utilize the extra lumens. A second light waste I often see is inadaquate canopies where much light gets though to light
                   up the floor, what a waste. If you take two clones and put them into flower at 8 inches, the one under CO2 should
                   outgrow the one without and finish bigger. I have found that CO2 at the start of flowering builds bigger thicker plants and
                   stalks, translating to bigger yields.

                   A plant can only grow as fast as it's weakest link will allow. A plant can only maximize it's CO2 use if lighting, temps,
                   nutrient, and moisture needs are met. Same could be said for any of these needs of the plant. I know these comments
                   are on a much simpler level than some of you are discussing, just thought it needed mentioning for others ;)

                   I've played with CO2 burners and bottled CO2 in smaller setups, and despite my inability to use it efficiently, I have
                   seen improvement by using it. My downside was that I could never turn off my ventilation (exhausting ozone and odour)
                   so I have no idea how high my CO2 levels got. I really need one of those expensive monitors before I waste more CO2,
                   haha. My CO2 levels weren't in excess I suspect, because I didn't notice a decrease in bud quality, in fact, if anything,
                   I would say I ended up with a greater proportion of the higher quality nugs. I attributed this to the plants looking
                   healthier and not a direct result of the CO2. Like most things in life, I think moderation is the key. Bump the CO2 to
                   levels of about 500 - 700 ppm, most gardens are incapable of using more efficiently. And according to the manual "How
                   to Supercharge your garden", excess CO2 is harmfull to the plants. It didn't mention why though. Just suggests to
                   gradually increase your CO2 and monitor your crop's responce to it.

                   OT - 80 oz with 1K of lighting? is that a typo? I have yet to learn how to get half of that with a 1K on a mover moving
                   18", haha.

                   Hello and Seasons Greetings to those I missed as well :)

                   TOPIC - theoretical vs. actual
                   DATE - 14:46:20 12/17/99
                   FROM - loop

                   Ot1- thanks again for your excellent post regarding your experience with co2.
                   Similarly, I use the green air monitor but without the controller and relays. I use it like one would use a pH pen. I take
                   my measurements, adjust my flow rate valve and timers and play till I get it right. In my set up I use co2 at 1000ppm
                   from week 2-5 or 3-6 depending what variety I using. I found that if I use it past then, the plants want to continue to
                   grow and not completely finish. When I was growing shisk, I was able to get it to finish in 42 day (as opposed to 48
                   without). Again with shisk, the leaves got huge but I never noticed the buds being leafier. Potency seemed the same
                   and yield was increased slightly (less the 10%) but saving 6 days on 48 was worth the price of admission. Since then
                   Iíve been playing with so many different strains I honestly couldnít say what the differences are. Time to do another
                   crop without to set up a base line. Will report back.
                   One more quick question for you. Do you prune the side branches when growing esb? Do they need support?

                   Popeye- good info, thanks.

                   Mickey- you read as well as rx. Ot1 uses a sophisticated inferred monitoring device to know what the actual (as
                   opposed to theoretical) levels are in the room. Around here theyíre close to $1k. He also uses the controller, that keeps
                   the level within a specified + or - range (about $400) relays to control fans ($200-$900 and possibly (he didnít say) a
                   generator that uses natural gas or propane to create co2.
                   The first time I set up co2 I used a regulator, flow gauge and timer and calculated my usage. My results were
                   reasonably lackluster. I rented a monitor from a local grow shop and like ot1, was surprised what the actual readings
                   were. Never calculated in how much the plants actually used and/or how much my seemingly airtight space leaked.
                   Even with back-draft dampers on both intake and exhaust fans, I go through 3 x the co2 than I predicted. Rent a
                   monitor for the day (probably cost you $25) you might be in for a surprise.

                   TOPIC - oldtimer1, did i read right?
                   DATE - 14:03:06 12/17/99
                   FROM - cowboy

                   ot1,i saw below a statement that certainly got my attention.I think i saw you say that some folks can pull off about 6
                   elbows of buds under a 1k?Is this correct or did i misread ,and if it is correct i would be so very very interested in
                   reading and learning a whole lot more about the SYSTEM that produces these type yields.if this is true it makes my
                   friend feel like he has been literally wasting his electricity and lights.We... and i am sure i can speak for everyone
                   would definately like to know more.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 12:59:47 12/17/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   Popeye I know naff all about physics but its not hard to use tools! I had assumed that as the air thinned with altitude
                   that the ppm would reduce! Thereís no fool like an old one LOL! When I first got the reader I use to play with it a lot it
                   can be unplugged from the system and be used as a hand held portable devise. Any how outside the level has never
                   gone below 330 ppm and the highest I recorded was just under 400 ppm. This is in a large city centre. Just for interest
                   sakes in the grow room if you shut the ventilation off and the plants are at their maximum growth rate the co2 levels
                   drop rapidly to the low tens in 15 to 20 mins. I donít think they would ever zero out completely. Iím not sure what the
                   real bottom level would be as I was either in there breathing or letting air in when I went in to look! The room is not
                   airtight either, whatever the plants use the co2 up very rapidly. Thanks for the info on altitude and co2, Iíll have to stop
                   making uneducated guesses, I was just looking for a way rx could be speaking the truth but for the wrong reason, so
                   the only skittle still standing could be low air exchange! That is unless you can tell me something different, Iím all

                   All the best Ot1

                   TOPIC - Oldtimer1 and other co2 skeptics
                   DATE - 12:51:07 12/17/99
                   FROM - micky mouse

                   Please leave me out of this controversy. I paid $400 for my bottled co2 dispenser: a cylinder along with a regulator and
                   a valve operatd with a timer. It works fine. If you paid $4000 for the same thing your vendor probably put something else
                   in the cylinders. Maybe it was laughing gas.

                   TOPIC - CO2 at varying altitudes
                   DATE - 11:42:04 12/17/99
                   FROM - Popeye

                   OT1...your diplomacy is unmatched, but hey, I'm just a loud-mouthed colonial...heh heh.
                   Your comments regarding the % of atmospheric CO2 at altitude piqued my curiosity.
                   >The first 60 miles (100 km) of Earth's atmosphere consists of a uniform, or homogeneous mixture...Carbon dioxide
                   (CO2) 325 parts per million...Atmospheric CO2 concentrations at Niwot Ridge, Colorado, U.S.A., 3749 m above MSL:
                   356.8 ppm
                   Atmospheric CO2 concentrations at Barrow, Alaska, U.S.A., 11 m above MSL: 367.73 ppm
                   Atmospheric CO2 concentrations at Key Biscayne, Florida, U.S.A., 3 m above MSL: 357.4 ppm<
                   Conway, T.J., P.P. Tans, and L.S. Waterman. 1994. Atmospheric CO2 records from sites in the NOAA/CMDL air
                   sampling network.

                   The data suggests that CO2 levels are not significantly different at MSL to well over 12000 feet above MSL.
                   I would think it's a reasonable assumption, (yikes!) that good ventilation should keep CO2 at adequate levels regardless
                   of altitude.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 10:24:50 12/17/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   Hi Peaceness you can see the old ticker is working a bit better again haha. I have just put 16 esb in my own grow from
                   my fav mum. This is my first grow of this clone selection I should have a good idea what clones of this var can do from
                   a selected mum late feb, is there any particular info you want. They went into their finish pots [4 litre] at 6 inches on
                   20/4 for 7 days untill rooted through. Going to 11/13 they were 11 to 13 inches now 12 days later they are between 37
                   and 42 inches so growth if fairly rapid they are all looking pretty good, once stretching slows and flowering is fully
                   initiated I will bring them back to 12/12. They are spaced 2.4 to the sq ft, there are 8 clone vars in an 8 x 4 space 78
                   plants total under 2 k of mixed light. At present no liquid feed has been given they are living on Ro water and the
                   compost! Its funny but some of the co-op members do way better than me, the record was just over 80 oz per k, canít
                   do it myself must getting to old lol!

                   rx I probably mentioned that I thought the Dutch breeders were going down the pan. Of what Iíve tried recently JH, nl5 x
                   Hz, WW, ak47 and KM I have not found one keeper. Iím not qualified to talk about Indicas as they aren't my fav tipple
                   and Iím not set up to grow them! I have been told by friends that sensi star is good but I haven't smoked it. Of all the
                   indicas Iíve tried I liked Blueberry the best, its problem is that its a very low yielder, apart from the odd something
                   special, to be kept a plant has to yield a minimum average of 40 grams in the clone generation before it gets to be
                   mummed up permanently! I have kept one C99 although it only averaged 27 g in the clone generation. I have to say that
                   all the C99 fems I grew from seed were better than anything Iíve tried from Holland. It has a bit of sativa in its stone and
                   may well make a reasonable cross for you. One of its best attributes is how fast it is, it really is finished in 6.5 to 7
                   As far as your strains ability to use co2 I made some points and questions below. I have to say I couldn't believe my
                   eyes when I saw the numbers going down on the reader the first time we put the lights on. At some time in the future I
                   may try co2 again but at say 700 ppm and see what the effect is our prob is that sats grow fast enough as it is!

                   Age yes well iím a war baby too a little younger than you, no figures for the data gatherers though, paranoid yes sir!

                   All the best Ot1.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 10:24:49 12/17/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   Hi Peaceness you can see the old ticker is working a bit better again haha. I have just put 16 esb in my own grow from
                   my fav mum. This is my first grow of this clone selection I should have a good idea what clones of this var can do from
                   a selected mum late feb, is there any particular info you want. They went into their finish pots [4 litre] at 6 inches on
                   20/4 for 7 days untill rooted through. Going to 11/13 they were 11 to 13 inches now 12 days later they are between 37
                  and 42 inches so growth if fairly rapid they are all looking pretty good, once stretching slows and flowering is fully
                   initiated I will bring them back to 12/12. They are spaced 2.4 to the sq ft, there are 8 clone vars in an 8 x 4 space 78
                   plants total under 2 k of mixed light. At present no liquid feed has been given they are living on Ro water and the
                   compost! Its funny but some of the co-op members do way better than me, the record was just over 80 oz per k, canít
                   do it myself must getting to old lol!

                   rx I probably mentioned that I thought the Dutch breeders were going down the pan. Of what Iíve tried recently JH, nl5 x
                   Hz, WW, ak47 and KM I have not found one keeper. Iím not qualified to talk about Indicas as they aren't my fav tipple
                   and Iím not set up to grow them! I have been told by friends that sensi star is good but I haven't smoked it. Of all the
                   indicas Iíve tried I liked Blueberry the best, its problem is that its a very low yielder, apart from the odd something
                   special, to be kept a plant has to yield a minimum average of 40 grams in the clone generation before it gets to be
                   mummed up permanently! I have kept one C99 although it only averaged 27 g in the clone generation. I have to say that
                   all the C99 fems I grew from seed were better than anything Iíve tried from Holland. It has a bit of sativa in its stone and
                   may well make a reasonable cross for you. One of its best attributes is how fast it is, it really is finished in 6.5 to 7
                   As far as your strains ability to use co2 I made some points and questions below. I have to say I couldn't believe my
                   eyes when I saw the numbers going down on the reader the first time we put the lights on. At some time in the future I
                   may try co2 again but at say 700 ppm and see what the effect is our prob is that sats grow fast enough as it is!

                   Age yes well iím a war baby too a little younger than you, no figures for the data gatherers though, paranoid yes sir!

                   All the best Ot1.

                   TOPIC - I like to say one thing
                   DATE - 06:23:08 12/17/99
                   FROM - Ahhsome

                   This is the most informative message board I have ever seen.
                   My compliments to all you Bcanadians Smile Canada:)

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 06:07:54 12/17/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   rx You sure are funny! You seem to take offence and become defensive when no one is attacking you! This place is
                   about improving growing knowledge and spreading the word, we all like the plant and the diversity of what it produces!
                   Iím assuming you weren't being rude with the am/bc English remarks! There are Aussie and Kiwi English folks that
                   post here as well, come to that Iím English English, we try and read through the differences in meanings, I hope you do
                   as well! I posted some of our experiences with co2 because I thought it may have some value for you. It is gardening
                   after all and there are many ways of growing, none of them are the only way. You are free to take and use or ignore any
                   thing that may help your particular methods its your choice! We do try and help one another here! So! ==>
                   I harvest only bud. It is very crisp and full of resin.
                   This says to me you have had only moderate amounts of co2 in your grow room. I can only speculate, but I think you
                   said that you are growing at 6000 ft I suspect that the background levels of co2 are much lower due to the altitude! So
                   any input of co2 would improve the grow! We donít even know if the input you are making is getting you close to the
                   background level at sea level! I find this fascinating any one here know what the normal level is at 6k+ ft?
                   If I can find an easy and efficient way to make good co2, I am going to keep using it. No doubt your suggestions
                   otherwise are helpful. Thus far you have not openly opined that co2 supplement is harmful? Do you really care if I use
                   co2? Is it illegal? By all means deprive your self of co2's benefits for the sake of science. Thanks again! Kiss my ass.
                   Well tounge in cheek but not in yours!!! All the research has been done for the commercial glasshouse growers! They
                   use propane/natural gas burners, they are very clean complete burning no co! Yes they cost a bit initially but so does a
                   light, they are very very cheap to run! The reason they are not used much by indoor growers is heat buildup in multiple
                   light rooms. I have seen these burners used in Europe, 40kw of lighting in a warehouse, they were using air con with
                   about 90 to 95% air recirculation. They were working on 400 ppm, at this level they said it made little difference to the
                   air con loading. Now this is not growing in a co2 rich environment just simple climate control. This is what we do with
                   our fast air exchange. I donít deprive my plants of co2! Even with the co2 you are putting in you may be! Your plants
                   could be getting half what mine are you haven't a clue, without measuring the levels you are just guessing, you may be
                   growing at a big co2 disadvantage!

                   Popeye sorry you could be wrong, as one assumption it could be rxís ventilation is inadequate! Then the co2 level
                   could get down to near zero levels within a short time of the lights coming on and the plants may only get the
                   equivalent of an hour or soís growth in a day, who knows. This problem gets worse the larger the plants get. Under
                   these circumstances any additional co2 would make big differences. I think the claims for big increases in yields using
                   co2 come from people who have an inadequate environment for the plants to photosynthesise properly in the first place!
                   What you said was correct assuming rxís growing conditions were perfect!

                   rx I hope this helps a bit. Ot1.

                   TOPIC - oldtimer1's comments
                   DATE - 03:35:36 12/17/99
                   FROM - rx

                   I am aware x25 might weaken the strain. The plants have dwarfed, but are very vigouous and produce big, very compact
                   buds, full of resin and very potent (less than headache quality after cured two weeks) I have tried cross breeding from
                   field varities (mexican sativa, which resembles the best columbian) without success so far.I have lots of seeeds so I
                   compensate the dwarfing by planting many plants. (two females per 12" pot.Six pots under 400w hps) So I'm looking
                   for new stock. A report on this board that dutch was in decline startled me, because that is what I had in mind. Nor
                   was I aware that my strain seems unique in it's ability to respond to c02. Thanks for your suggestions. I was born in
                   1938. Just how old are you?

                   TOPIC - OT1
                   DATE - 03:16:57 12/17/99
                   FROM - Peaceness

                   Good Day!!

                   OT1: Your growing experience is priceless!! Have experimented with Co2 myself, it is not that effective.
                   Can you do a write up on esb,( how to grow it, and how to get those HUGE yields 55 oz per 1k??!) am thinking about
                   planting them indoor and out, as i also preffer the sativa high! Recently obtained some seeds in some very skunky
                   sativa (PARANOIA) weed, am thinking about these also, maybe in an esb cross? Thanks.

                   P.S. Ever thought about writing a book? :)


                   TOPIC - popeye's terrible tea
                   DATE - 03:11:46 12/17/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Dear popeye: If the sugar solvent in my tea won't do it for you, substitute 1/4 cup of olive oil. Have you tried my recipe?
                   What I am hearing on this message board is just this kind of flatulence - a lot of loud opnions which are yet to be tried.
                   Does my rx need refilled? - sorry, I was unaware. I wish my doc was so easy to fool.Relax guys,I don't want your
                   turf.Don't be anxious I've come to help you out if I can. At least I can teach you what you will get from me with
                   sweetness and light and what rudeness will return. Two cups a day will help to dispel your anxieties. Rock on!

                   TOPIC - reply to funkdified
                   DATE - 01:50:00 12/17/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Rock on! Outdoors growing is no longer an option hereabouts. The air is thick with heliocopters. Pollution of the buds
                   with dust and insect feces etc make for beter stuff inside. Out of doors I never got the kind of budding these hps
                   promote - co2 supplementation is like pissing in the ocean when you are out of doors so the co2 advantage is lost. I
                   use six 12" pots and host two plants per pot trying to get twelve plants growing to fill up the headroom. Average ht is
                   24" - 30". I pinch tops at the third internode for dual tops and tie them down. I feed peters african violet feed. during the
                   last 6 weeks all the shade leaves turn yellow& fall off and I harvest only bud. It is very crisp and full of resin. Best in the

                   TOPIC - co2 & tea reply to loop oldtimer trelaway
                   DATE - 01:22:54 12/17/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Thank you all for your posts. All the science in the world won't shake me from what mine own eyes have witnessed.
                   Each of you has made some reading error in deciphering my posts. I am sure you can read you are just a little fogged
                   up and in a hurry. I wonder if the translitteration between american and bc english is 1:1. You know how funny they
                   talk! (haha) Anyhow,since high altitude pot is of better quality than that produced by lowlanders - less is needed. If I
                   can find an easy and efficient way to make good co2, I am going to keep using it. No doubt your suggestions otherwise
                   are helpful. Thus far you have not openly opined that co2 supplement is harmful? Do you really care if I use co2? Is it
                   illegal? By all means deprive your self of co2's benefits for the sake of science. Thanks again! Kiss my ass.

                   TOPIC - terrible tea
                   DATE - 19:39:24 12/16/99
                   FROM - trelaway

                   In support of popeye's comment on the solubility of thc: i had some really harsh bud last year and a friend suggested
                   boiling the pot, redrying to see if that would help the harshness.

                   I tried it, low boiling the bud for twenty minutes. the stone was a little differnt but the strength remained the same.
                   Whether it helped the harshness was debateable but the point is the potency of the bud wasn't affected.

                   Now, if I'd added some cream or butter to the water...a different story would have been told.

                   TOPIC - co2
                   DATE - 17:22:44 12/16/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   rx after 25 generations of inbreeding Iím surprised you are getting the yield you say. The population you must have to
                  select from is minimal and inbreeding suppressive traits are probably coming to the fore. So you tend to get declining
                   yields it would do you good to introduce some new blood to the line preferably an IBL like C99. This would crossed with
                   your own IBL give the effect of an F1 hybrid ie increased yield from the heterosis effect. Or you could start again with
                   something like sensi star, as a var that is a full monty indica.

                   As far as co2 is concerned from my own observations it is better to get all other things right first, once your growing
                   system is as good as you can get it, ie consistent results grow after grow,ok then introduce co2 and experiment. I
                   donít think you can say what co2 does to your grow unless you have data from several grows! I have never seen a puff
                   grower come up with any real data yet. The data in the old books was filched from glasshouse research stations and
                   correlated to growing under lights indoors and from my experience probably never tested before written about.

                   Now we have experimented with co2 and some of what we found may not be relevant to your circumstances as we
                   grow Sats and Sat dom hybrids but some of it must hold true. The equipment we used is a greenair co2
                   reader/controller reading accuracy + - 5 ppm, a smart microprocessor switching devise and a relay bank to control the
                   fans/co2 dispenser etc. The input/extract fans completely change the room air every 3 mins up to 70 f and every 1.5
                   mins above that. This keeps the the co2 level around 350 ppm steady ie the same as the normal outside level. We did
                   4 grows over a couple of years where we used co2 during the light on period we ran 45 mins with input/extract fans off
                   co2 at a constant 1500 ppm. 15 mins co2 off and the last 3 min with the input/fans on maximum to completely purge
                   the room. Internal circulation fans are kept running continuously.

                   We found it produced much faster growth. Softer stems, larger leaves which were darker green and had probs with leaf
                   spot for the first time ever. You want leaf mass well you get it and how. If used during flowering there were so many
                   leaves on the colas it was hard to see a calyx. We used 10 vars from known mums! None of them produced buds that
                   were typical to the var, they lacked their distinctive smell and tastes that made them special. The bud structure was
                   looser and worst of all no matter how they were cured you couldn't get rid of the green chlorophyll taste! Potency was
                   down yes they had a lot of resin but that up edge to the high was gone! Oh yes the buds took over twice as long to
                   manicure! What did we get at the end of the day apart from inferior puff, a measly 17% increase in weight!

                   What I want to see when I have a bud, is lots of close calyxes coated with tricomes, not the edges of hundreds of cut
                   off leaves! Now this may not be the effect when growing pure indicas I haven't tried them with co2. Anyhow the $4000 in
                   your money, that we spent on equipment, gas and tanks certainly produced big results, just not the buds we thought
                   we would get! As far as producing co2 by fermentation 1.5 kiloís of sugar in 5 litres of water will produce about 1.45 lbs
                   of co2 over about 5/6 weeks its like pissing in the ocean to raise the water level. The good thing that came out of the
                   experiment was the co2 reader, before having that the word here was the air in the grow room needed changing every
                   20 minís or so! Well at that rate the reader just tumbled down when the lights went on and after about 1/2 an hour
                   stabilised to about 50 ppm steady then as the room warmed up very slowly dropped further. It taught us about
                   ventilation, it costs a lot of $ but is just as valuable as a ph or cf pen. You can have your ph and nutrients spot on but
                   the plants just wont metabolise properly in a co2 deficient environment! This was several years ago for us, the
                   immediate result of changing the ventilation was over doubling our yields. I suspect a lot of folks dabbling with co2 are
                   just compensating for inadequate ventilation rather than growing in co2 rich environment. Just a few thoughts to mull
                   over from an olden.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 11:24:24 12/16/99
                   FROM - loop_hole

                   Rx-Popeye is, of course, 100% correct and his comments on co2 correlates with my experience exactly. I tend to take
                   a more non-confrontational approach but that did need to be said. Thank you Popeye.
                   Although I may not have been clear, if you re-read my post you will find that
                   a) I do use co2 and find it worthwhile in my set up.
                   b) My ěsarcasmî about toy for the big boys was a comment about my earlier post and how I had hoped people didnít
                   interrupt that as such.
                   This board has some of the most advanced and experienced growers on the net and it would be well advised if you
                   talked less and listened more.

                   TOPIC - That's all I can stands, I can't stands
                   DATE - 08:05:56 12/16/99
                   FROM - Popeye

                   no more...
                   There have been some entirely inaccurate claims made here lately, so at the risk of offending anyone, especially those
                   who need their prescriptions refilled:

                   1)Carbon dioxide supplementation, (even when accurately supplied and monitored, not to mention the extremely
                   inconsistent output from a Mickey Mouse fermentation system) will NOT more than double your yield, or increase
                   yields 30-50%, and does NOT improve potency, or decrease odors and fungal problems. It may decrease the time to
                   harvest by a week or two, and may increase yield marginally, but that's about it.

                   2)Terrible Tea: THC, being non-soluble in water, does not transfer to the "tea"; almost all you get are proteins,
                   chlorophyll, and other non-stoning agents in solution; most of the THC gets thrown out with the remains of the bud you

                   Learn from your mistakes, and you may find that experience IS everything.

                   TOPIC - rx
                   DATE - 05:19:09 12/16/99
                   FROM - funkdified

                   Well, I'm on my 5th indoor crop right now. Unfortunately, because I rent, I run into security issues that don't always
                   allow me to grow constantly. I spent a couple years before doing things outdoors to bring me a total of 5 years.
                   Outdoors I have not really had very good luck. Mind you I always harvest some of good quality, but I have seemed to
                   always pick locations that have development the following year. So, I find myself trying to deal with new soil and
                   environment every year. Just looking forward to finishing college and getting a house/land of my own. Indoors my yeilds
                   have slowly been going up. This crop looks to be my best as far a yeild goes (5-6 oz.) I didn't efficiently fill my space
                   up, so it could have been better. In the past I had never had enough plants. I have to keep them small, 2-3 ft at
                   maturity, because I'm doing the closet thing. I'm sure that you can see how yeild would be low on 6 2-3 ft plants. In all
                   honesty though, yeild isn't of utmost concern. I'd rather have fewer tasty potent nugs than a lot of so-so nugs. Thanks
                   for you response.

                   Happy Holidays to all

                   P.S. - I just ran into this link today. Wasn't attempting to spam, just wanted to pass it along.

                                                      Link: marijuanaclones

                   TOPIC - supplement to rx's answer to fundified's query
                   DATE - 01:16:37 12/16/99
                   FROM - rx

                   One year of the out of doors experience was in paradise - the big island. ('79 - '80). Them were the days!

                   TOPIC - funkdified's query how long growing?
                   DATE - 00:51:14 12/16/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Total:Eleven years indoors with seeds from sssc. Most recently - under lights, 5 yrs; Before that, 6 years under a sky
                   light. Some out of door guerilla growing before that.There have been times I carried it from window to window as the sun
                   moved round. There is nothing like a sky light, but I had to move. The longer I grow, the smaller my crops get, proving
                   experience isn't everything. Thanks for your inquiry. How long for you?

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 19:53:36 12/15/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   Nat E Dred - gotcha dude, haha. I grew all the moms in the organic soil mix, and don't really vary things, so I don't
                   really get much of a feel for what needs more of what. They all just get more than they need, and what doesn't like the
                   soil just doesn't make the cut, haha. But I suspect life won't be so simple in hydro, I have a aero buddy who bitches
                   about mixed crops because of their different nutrient requirements. Sorry I can't be of more help. Would love to hear
                   your feedback on Marc's romulan, it would be very welcome here.

                   TOPIC - Tks
                   DATE - 19:30:19 12/15/99
                   FROM - Nat E Dred

                   You kinda misunderstood, the Romulan came from M.E. yes, the surprises from RC, I didnt want you to confuse my
                   Romulan with the Romulan surprise so I pointed to M. E. as that source. Naw dude, I know the surprise nature, have
                   had a few of those myself, but have never done Rom, ST or RSB, so I figured there might be some tendencies from the
                   mothers info that could pertain. Twas worth a shot.
                   Nat E Dred

                   TOPIC - suprises
                   DATE - 19:01:10 12/15/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   Nat E. Dred - you should have fun with those mixes dude, suprised Marc would still have some of those kicking around.
                   Anyway, your question tells me that you (unfortunately) didn't fully understand the nature of the suprises. They are
                   going to be quite variable (all the way from indica dominants to sativa dominants) so in a hydro setup, some will do
                   better than others. But this could be a good thing, with the variation, some should be suitable for your setup ;)

                   Of the suprises, keep an eye on the RSB, they turned out to be the dark horse of the lot. I've recieved more
                   compliments from them than any of the others. Which was a suprise, I expected the romulan or the ST suprises to be
                   the best. Anyway, good luck and make sure you have some quality odour control in place for those romulans ;)

                   TOPIC - Vic, a moment please
                   DATE - 12:30:45 12/15/99
                   FROM - Nat E. Dred

                   Hi Vic, I'm looking at running you RSB surprise, ST surprise, and some Romulan I got from M.E. on the next run, and
                   since you have experience with them I'd like to ask how compatable the nutrient requirements are between these 3
                   strains. I figure at least 2 should be close enough to each other, and I have plenty plenty to play with. This run I really
                   just want to watch their growth habits for a full run of selected moms. In Hydro, GH nutes.
                   Thanks Vic
                   Happy Holidays all!
                   Nat E. Dred

                   TOPIC - rx
                   DATE - 05:17:41 12/15/99
                   FROM - funkdified

                   Just curios rx, how long have you been growing? 8oz from 400W isn't too bad. Not trying to be nosey, I was just
                   looking for someone to compare how I am doing so far.

                   TOPIC - lawyer jokes?
                   DATE - 02:50:43 12/15/99
                   FROM - yepod

                   Just woke up. What time is it. Where am I. Heard any good lawyer jokes.(not intending an oxymoron)

                   TOPIC - loop_hole's post (supplementing rx's reply)
                   DATE - 03:19:04 12/14/99
                   FROM - rx

                   One diffrence which may explain our divergance over co2 is my operation is in the mountains - 6500 feet above sea
                   level. You may be sea level grower.

                   TOPIC - loop-hole's post (bean hoe)
                   DATE - 02:33:47 12/14/99
                   FROM - rx

                   I just made a harvest which is about 8 oz under 400 w hps. No co2 was used in this grow. 105 days. I grow insoil. My
                   seeds orginaly were from sssc. They have been inbred for at least x25. The plant is a hearty dwarf indica some what
                   skunky.The colas are well formed, 4 - 5 inches long, about as big as a jumbo frank. If I smoke two joints per day, I go
                   nowhere and acomplish nothing but a terrific feeling of well bean. (haha) It's well adapted to hps. I'm proud as hell that
                   I've been able to grow anything. This pitiful crop will last me 5 or six months and i will stay within the almost legal limit.
                   Despite your sarcasm about big toys and etc, my plants are heathy, vigorous and vitually pest free. Using co2 derivied
                   from fermenting has consistently boosted my crop 30 - 50 % in volume and potency, keeps give away oders to a
                   minimum, keeps fungus and mold at bay and makes me content with my plight. Maybe these growers you know who
                   don't like co2 are using the wrong kind of co2 or have too much ventilation. Quin sabe? Did you ever hear of mel frank?

                   TOPIC - being a bean hoe
                   DATE - 14:08:43 12/13/99
                   FROM - loop

                   Ot1- thank you for the info on esb and the soil mix. Think Iíll give esb a try. Not that I should because contrary to advise
                   I given others, I got far too many strains going right now as it is. Since returning from Aídam, more ready to go. I think
                   Vic calls himself a seed slut and I must admit Iím a bit of a bean hoe myself. So many strains, so little space. Would
                   love to try the es, i have a few astronaut friends.
                   I no longer have the Thai x Malawi cross although I do have the same Malawi and a different Thai in seed form but Iíve
                   yet to duplicate the cross due to space limitations. One day.

                   Doc evil- I did receive your mail but I only ěfoundî it today after reading your message here. Your e-mail did not have
                   your normal doc e name attached and I thought your message was just spamÖsorry.
                   Glad to hear everything worked out far better than it could have. Good luck and if you need some help with genetics let
                   me know, lord knows I have enough.

                   All- after re-reading my last post I realized I might have come across a bit snobbish. (i.e. the best Iíve ever smoked is
                   my own, Aídam weed is shit, if you canít get a gram a watt then you shouldnít play with the big boy toys). No
                   disrespect was meant to anyone.
                   I was disappointed in the aídam stuff though. Almost none of the stuff would burn being over fertilized, wet and poorly
                   cured. I did look nice but had no balls. I donít think it was the genetics because I have several Dutch strains that I think
                   are very good. Maybe all the good stuff was being saved for the cup?

                   I do think co2 is a fun thing to play with but many commercial growers have found it wasnít worth their effort.
                   Concentrating on lighting (intensity, spectrum, and movement) temps, humidity and plant density pays off far more in
                   effort vs. results than co2 does (again IMHO). But we all know there is far more to growing than just yield so we should
                   all just do whatever rocks our boats.

                   Grow well

                   TOPIC - tillerman tea
                   DATE - 01:01:28 12/13/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Place the contents of a family size tea bag in a paper coffe filter in your coffee pot. stir in one - sixteenth cup crushed
                   bud. Sprinkle with 1/4 teaspoon sugar. Percolate 24 oz heated water over the mixture. I like a little lemon added. Hot or
                   cold it is the best drink in the universe. I think the effect of thc ingested as tea is more profound than smoke. It seems
                   to get right into the muscles and cause deep relaxation. It clears the lungs and aids in digestion. It stimulates appetite.
                   Disapointingly, the rush from smoking is lost. Two cups a day keeps me mild as a child.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 16:17:43 12/12/99
                   FROM - oldtimer1

                   loop_hole it wonít have the up you would have with a Thai x Malawi cross, the indica in my cross smooths it some. Its
                   mum is just like the Thai cross its a bit like being on a roller coaster, the waves just keep coming lol well there are
                   touches of that in the esb. Its worth keeping crosses like your T x M they make good breeding partners to indicas for
                   those that donít like to much cerebral activity, plus by keeping a mum you can do a few pure for the astronauts.

                   The organic compost formula is still under development but we use wormest and premix from the Bio Bizz Co at
                   Groningen in Holland, its our base fertiliser and nutrient supply. The main bulk ingredients are sedge and moss peats,
                   Kettering sterilised loam and perlite! For ph balance and trace elements Dolomite lime and Calcified seaweed are used.

                   Some liquid feed is given, once again they come from Bio Bizz, using their bloom grow and fish fertilisers! Water is Ro
                   and carbon filter treated. We tend to under feed rather than force feed and make small adjustments to keep the plants
                   in good health. As an example I found that when growing C99 it needed a lot more N than our plants at certain stages
                   of its growth. So a small pinch of dried blood sprinkled over the soil in the C99 pots and lightly watered in kept its
                   balance and health up to the the other plants in the grow!

                   I will try and update the esb with a new pick soon [the same plant]. I have just put 16 esb on 12/12 in my own grow of
                   78 plants, its a bigger sample of one clone from this cross! The yield data etc should be ready in march! Hope this
                   helps. Ot1.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 15:34:36 12/12/99
                   FROM - Dr. Evil

                   Hi all,
                   Loop_hole: I sent you mail about 2 weeks ago, received no reply so far. If you just haven't had a chance to reply, what
                   with the holidays and all, I understand. If the mail is not getting through, then maybe there is something wrong with one
                   of our accounts, and needs to be investigated further. I just didn't want you to think I blew you off when you asked me
                   to drop you a line.

                   Budm: If you're lurking out there, I can be reached at the address above. Just wanted to say hello, and tell you I made
                   it through my tribulations unscathed (relatively speaking).

                   happy holidays all,
                   Be Safe
                   Dr. Evil

                   TOPIC - organic tea recipies
                   DATE - 11:41:27 12/12/99
                   FROM - Pegasys

                   anyone have any orgamic tea recipies that the have personally used/made ??? and can u tell me what i
                   end up with ie : a 5-1-1,5-10-5,5-5-10 .... etc ??

                   TOPIC - Plant Problems
                   DATE - 23:50:57 12/11/99
                   FROM - nexus

                   Help 30% of leaves on the plant are yellow and brown at the tip, I had mites a while ago but it seems to be preaty
                   much under control i used neem-oil. I have not been ferting because of salt build up problems in the past. My medium
                   is uncle malcomes soil. The temp is light on-80,85 and off-70. Also on the bigger leaves the stems are purple, I am
                   growing mr.nice, c99 (which is hit the hardest) and some GFW. I water every other day. There under 1k hps with 1 gal
                   pots and c99's and mr.nice's are around 1 1/2 feet tall expect for gfw which is about 6 inchs.
                   I just dont know what the problem is.
                   thanx for the help

                   TOPIC - wadsworth - co2 set up
                   DATE - 01:33:29 12/11/99
                   FROM - rx

                   I'm gonna try it. Thanks

                   TOPIC - columbian widow
                   DATE - 00:05:44 12/11/99
                   FROM - peaceness

                   hello, thanks for everybodys suggestions concerning my slow growing plants.i will persist tell i can get a cut from each.

                   vic/all: i was wondering if you had any background info on the columbian widow fom a-1's auction, just received them


                   TOPIC - peaceness
                   DATE - 17:15:44 12/10/99
                   FROM - irish

                   i agree with the posts about the high ph causing plant to be so slow. my friend had that problem, he flushed a couple
                   of times with pH adjusted clear water, let it dry out in between, plant bounced back no problem. (plant otherwise looks
                   healthy, but just kinda "stuck" right?)

                   TOPIC - vin.bake soda co2
                   DATE - 14:21:45 12/10/99
                   FROM - Wadsworth

                   For making your own co2 w/vinegar & baking soda mix in a large container baking soda & water to about 1/2 full. This
                   mix should be mostly baking soda, basiclly a slurry. Place this container down lower. Have the vinegar container above
                   this. In the vinegar you can place any kind of wick or string. I have something called Grow-Wick, just string in a vinyl
                   tube. When this starts to drip have it drip into the container of b/s slurry. Co2 is released when the two come together.
                   By adjusting the rate of dripping you adjust the rate of co2 production. You can get creative and use aquarium tubing
                   and valves. By having the b/s cont. sealed and ventilated you can direct where the co2 goes to. Every now and then
                   drain off the liquid from the b/s, maybe add a little more. Experiment abit because this can foam up and really make a
                   mess. ;(
                   Using candles didn't work well for me either. I don't like flames.

                   TOPIC - Peter's potting soil availabilty
                   DATE - 02:53:53 12/10/99
                   FROM - yepod

                   I can't find peters potting soil anywhere around here. I have tried schultz and scotts and walmart and none of them
                   compares to peters. can you help me locate this brand?

                   TOPIC - wadsworth
                   DATE - 02:47:47 12/10/99
                   FROM - rx

                   It sounds like you are running about the same system Iv'e got. Candle burning did not dothe co2 trick for me. Can you
                   describe the dripping system for baking soda and vinegar? How to get the vinegar to drip? ( No condom jokes! haha)
                   Thanks for the info on the lights

                   TOPIC - loop_hole
                   DATE - 02:36:08 12/10/99
                   FROM - arrooo

                   observations on your post. Sorry to hear about the poor quality of amsterdam pot. It's all Iv'e got to smoke. One gram of
                   product per watt is a very good return uder lights and especially without co2 supplement. That would be 12 or 13 oz for
                   400 watt. I have matched that using co2, but never exceeded it under lights. I used to have a 2x4 sky light that would
                   produce three or four pounds. That was living! Keep us posted on africian.

                   TOPIC - CO2
                   DATE - 02:32:35 12/10/99
                   FROM - Wadsworth

                   rx - try a candle to make co2 or have vinegar drip onto a baking soda solution.

                   TOPIC - Lights & A'dam
                   DATE - 02:27:32 12/10/99
                   FROM - Wadsworth

                   Arrooo - I've heard that you should get at least 6 mos.@ 24/0 before the quality of the light degrades. Twelve mos. is
                   more likely. I've used the same MH bulb for 3 veg. seasons - bought in 96 - w/o any problem. The hps has 2 seasons
                   on it. These are a 400 & 430 watt. The spectrum quality degrades over time but they're usable as long as they work.

                   Loop-hole - I was in A'dam in '97 and thought the weed was great. The freshness and potentcie of it was top notch. If
                   you've always grown your own kind maybe you've had fresher but I can't wait to go again. It was the cheapest, most
                   legal kind weed I ever had.

                   TOPIC - peaceness quandry
                   DATE - 02:27:28 12/10/99
                   FROM - arrooo

                   sounds like sour soil: i.e. your soil is too acidic, i.e. the ph is 7 or above. a ph meter will help you figure it out. they
                   cost about $10-15 at any garden shop. This condition may be caused by poor drainage. do you have gravel in the
                   bottom of your pot? I have never been able to salvage a plant in this condition and I reccomend you start over. Don't be
                   discouraged. Every grower loses some plants but if you masterthe skill of growing the stuff you will be amply rewarded.

                   TOPIC - usable life 400w hps?
                   DATE - 19:04:00 12/09/99
                   FROM - arrooo

                   I have been changing my 400w hps after 4 mos of 12:12.( fourty bucks a copy) Is this too often - too slow? How long
                   does the ballast last? Has anyone had excperience with 15w curly que floresents? My initial experience has been good
                   for plants during the first three weeks of sprouting with sprouting spectrum (very cool) model - one light per plant.
                   Anyone - please help me out.

                   TOPIC - Fertilizer Clearing in a Multivariatal HydroSystem
                   DATE - 17:43:53 12/09/99
                   FROM - Sierra Daze

                   In a hypothetical Hydroponic system, with
                   varieties with greatly varying fruition
                   completion times, a unique clearing
                   technique is proposed for removing the
                   chemical taste of fertilizer buildup in
                   the 'fruit'.

                   Specifically, if a system had 2 or more
                   varieties with greatly differing finishing
                   times, using a conventional clearing solution
                   approach for the first variety would deprive
                   the later variety of much needed nutrients
                   to develop ripe, outstanding 'fruit' with
                   full-bodied flavor.

                   The first step to solving this dilemma might
                   be to use a clearing solution each time the
                   tank is changed to as prevention of buildup.

                   Has anyone ever tried this? Did it reduce the
                   need for clearing time just prior to harvest?
                   This could be determined by tasting fruit early
                   to detect chemical tastes.

                   An additional solution is proposed:

                   When a variety (or individual plant) is finished,
                   transport the plant into another room.

                   This "finishing room" is on a 24 dark period to
                   prevent 'over ripening' the fruits.

                   For a period of around 7 days in the finishing
                   room, the variety or individuals are cleared
                   with the clearing solution.

                   It is assumed there is sufficient glucose sugars
                   stored in the plant to accomplish some "curing",
                   or conversion of fertilizers stored in the plant
                   to sugars in the fruits.

                   Literally, a slight 'cure' on the vine.

                   Has anyone tried this technique?

                   Thanks for all comments.

                   TOPIC - esb, africa, co2, a-dam and h202
                   DATE - 16:57:58 12/09/99
                   FROM - loop_hole

                   Ot1-Thanks for the info on ESB. Found your post at CW and they answered most of my questions. I had a Thai/Malawi
                   cross a few years back from seeds I obtained in their respective countries. Friends named it 911 after many of my
                   dinner guest got a little overwhelmed. Got rid of it because it was just too strong and you almost couldnít smoke a
                   small enough amount. After you rode out the zippy start ( heart racing and your body temp dropped 10 degrees) it was
                   one of my favorites that I still havenít even come close to matching its HIGH with the dozens of strains I tried since.
                   Hoping your cross will have a hint of familiarity. Gotta love that African stuff. I have a friend in Cameroon and I hope she
                   can send me some Nigerian beans.

                   Re: the co-ops soil mix. Could you elaborate a bit? Do you feed just water, organics, salts?

                   All ńRegarding co2. I have done several crops with and without co2. I found as long as my temps were 80 + and light
                   levels were over 3500 lumens at the plant tops (measured) it makes a worthwhile improvement. If not, your wasting your
                   time (IMHO). Also, putting some small fans on the floor blowing up seems to help. I figure that if youíre not getting a
                   gram per watt (maybe a little less for a single 400) youíve got bigger fish to fry than playing with co2. Thatís just one
                   mans opinion ;-)

                   Returned from Amsterdam about two months ago and was totally unimpressed with the quality of weed there. Anyone
                   else found this?

                   Peaceness. My guess is that your soil was too wet for too long (what was your RH?) and youíve developed a root
                   rot/fungus problem. Flush your plants with pH adjusted water mixed to 0.2% h2o2, and 30+ drops of powerthrive/gallon
                   and transplant into a much looser mix (add 30% perlite) and they should bounce back.
                   Good luck

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 12:47:51 12/09/99
                   FROM - KQ

                   Hi there Peacenss, is your soil cold?? cold roots can really hamper growth. I imagine your nutes and soil aireation are
                   just fine.

                   TOPIC - Stagnant grrowth in soil
                   DATE - 10:00:42 12/09/99
                   FROM - Peaceness

                   I have 2 plants that are currently in one gallon pots. the plants are about 6 inches with multiple tops. the problem i have
                   is that the plants are growing extremely slow, in fact there are periods when they do not grow, but are still alive. lighting
                   is not a problem as they are under a 400 watt. they also do not drink much as they need to be watered once every 2
                   months or so. also, prior to transferring them in the 1 gallon pots, i had them in 16 oz cups and the growth was bad
                   then also. i figured transplanting to one gallon containers with new soil wold work, but no luck. Vic, perhaps you can
                   help me out in getting the plants to grow as i need to mak cuttings from them soon.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 04:20:07 12/09/99
                   FROM - Ahhsome

                   rx I think 2 much of anythying can be a bad thing. However,
                   when one deals with cannabis or money 2 much is hard 2 define. Regarding women one is plenty, 2 is 2 2 much

                   TOPIC - candle inflated condom (rube Goldberg)
                   DATE - 02:47:21 12/09/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Dear rube - What's a condom?

                   TOPIC - kersosene lamp burning alcohol ( msgoldberg)
                   DATE - 02:43:55 12/09/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Dear Ms Goldberg - Have you actually tried this? I tried burning alcohol (everclear in a bunson burner - not a kerosene
                   lamp) and the results I observed were negative. But iv'e been wondering what to do with all this alcohol i'm making. i f
                   the alcohol were distilled fromthe ferment I've described it would yeild 2 quarts - theoreticly. I had to give up drinking it
                   many years ago and now I pour the poisenous stuff down the toilet. Thank you for your suggestion and I may just
                   revisit the idea.

                   TOPIC - kersosene lamp burning alcohol (goldberg)
                   DATE - 02:41:08 12/09/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Dear Ms Goldberg - Have you actually tried this? I tried burning alcohol (everclear in a bunson burner - not a kerosene
                   lamp) and the results I observed were negative. But iv'e been wondering what to do with all this alcohol i'm making. i f
                   the alcohol were distilled fromthe ferment I've described it would yeild 2 quarts - theoreticly. I had to give up drinking it
                   many years ago and now I pour the poisenous stuff down the toilet. Thank you for your suggestion and I may just
                   revisit the idea.

                   TOPIC - 2 much co2 (aasom)
                   DATE - 02:30:07 12/09/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Is too much thc like too much money - too many women? haha

                   TOPIC - bucket with simple syrup and yeast
                   DATE - 02:26:38 12/09/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Hello aahsom - the foregoing was an answer for you. Thanks again.

                   TOPIC - bucket with simple syrup and yeast
                   DATE - 02:13:13 12/09/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Thanks for your comment. I tried what you suggest and i met the ubiquitous vinegar fly - summer or winter. It is
                   profound universal question, where does the vinegar fly come from? If you figure this one out, please let me know.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 02:08:36 12/09/99
                   FROM - rx

                   to occam: what details would you like to know honorable aged grower?(I have field notes on 40 harvests or there
                   abouts) I would like to say my profound experience synergizes the co2, but forsooth, my best harvests were
                   someyears back. haha. An airlock tops the activated simple syrup. A 1/4" plastic hose runs a short distance - not over
                   2' to the lee side of a 6" fan - presumably blowing the c02 over the tops of the plants (venturi effect). After about 4
                   week, I add a second set up. Set up #1 is on its way to kaput mortem at that time. Its a pain in the ass - literally.
                   Doubles the yield, at least, maybe more. Is there anything else you would like to know...? Thank you for the inquiry.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 12:54:56 12/08/99
                   FROM - ahhsome

                   woops! sorry guys 2 much THC

                   TOPIC - C02
                   DATE - 12:53:11 12/08/99
                   FROM - Ahhsome

                   You could place yeast with sugar water in a 5 gal bucket
                   and if you don't mind the smell a good cheap source

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 10:12:38 12/08/99
                   FROM - Mrs Goldberg

                   Rube, how many times have I told you to KISS? (keep it simple stoner)

                   I read in Indoor Marijuana Horticulture by: Cervantes

                   that "Small, one lamp grow rooms can burn ethyl or methyl
                   alcohol in a kerosene lamp." In a 10 X 10' grow room, 3oz
                   of fuel will produce about 2,000 ppm of Co2 in 24 hours."


                   One of those old style kerosene lamps (scrollable wick
                   style, with glass chimney), using the non-toxic, odorless lamp fuel it comes with will generate plenty of usable CO2.

                   Okay boys and girls, time for milk and cookies and then a nap!

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 09:15:34 12/08/99
                   FROM - Rube Goldberg

                   rx even though some may disagree, I think you are experimental enough to find a way to blow up a condom as big as it
                   will go and arrange for a lit candle inside. Then you will seal it up until the flame goes out. You would have up to 23
                   percent co2 intthere with a small amount of carbon monoxide which isn't enough to make anyone sick. Then you can
                   prick a tiny pinhole in a piece of scotch tape on the condom for very slow release of your gas. You could even use one
                   of them tiney air compressors to store this gas in an old inner tube from a tire place. Good luck and let us know.

                   TOPIC - carbon dioxide...
                   DATE - 07:38:10 12/08/99
                   FROM - occam

                   rx... Carbon dioxide more than doubles your yield? Outstanding. Goes against observations made by some rather
                   experienced growers; I'd be interested in some details.

                   TOPIC - co2 from peat and lime
                   DATE - 00:01:54 12/08/99
                   FROM - rx

                   dear ko - I jusst dreamed it up using a little high school chemistry. I am searching for a better way than fermenting to
                   make the co2. Spill a granule of sugar and I've got ants.Also its heavy for me to haul around. Too heavy always makes
                   me think. Some times a ferment burns up in two or three weeks.(usual is 4 - 6 weeks) I use ten pounds of sugar in 5
                   gals of water activated with Pastuer yeast. Some times it more than doubles my yield. Great stuff. Iv'e also though
                   about a spark igniter from a gas stove. Over heating is a problem so I'm putting off propane lantern and electric heater
                   untill these other ideas dont pan out. Any suggestions are appreciated.

                   TOPIC - general
                   DATE - 21:59:26 12/07/99
                   FROM - hand

                   ants farm afhids for sticky substance?only thing i know about leaves is if you take them off too soon, the shoot they
                   feed doesnt grow well.water leaves seem to be for a fast start,once plant gets large removing doesnt seem to affect
                   much.anyone want to speculate on how renewed solar flare activity will affect outdoor plants.i never thought to try and
                   correlate solar flare activity to potency or growth habits till now,seeins how we are entering a period of increased
                   activity after a long period of inactivity.maybe plants are affected?more chance of sports?mayhap somthing unusual or
                   wonderfull will appear?should i stay inside during the worst ones?or would that even help?may get to see northern
                   lights again so cool.did most potent breeds appear during high solar activity?hmm i

                   TOPIC - question--non MJ
                   DATE - 19:49:06 12/07/99
                   FROM - trelaway

                   A friend has been losing houseplants to something that drips sticky stuff. He claims to see no bug but this problem
                   has affected three different plants grouped together.

                   Any ideas?

                   TOPIC - Vic High: Durban Thai HH
                   DATE - 18:23:43 12/07/99
                   FROM - sensi

                   Hello Vic! The auction DurbanThai HH seeds were germed and doing very well. Most seem to be of same phenotype
                   but a few have these twisted leaves with the edge curling up. My experience tells me they'll grow out of it, no big deal.
                   However,are you aware of more than one phenotype for this particular strain??

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 08:23:35 12/07/99
                   FROM - KQ

                   Hey RX, where did you hear about limestone and peat moss for C02?? It kinda makes sense cuz the moss is acid, but
                   is it acid enough? Never heard of it but it does sound interesting. Maybe try making your generator in a 5 gallon water
                   bottle using moist moss and lime powder or dolomite.

                   TOPIC - Limestone gravel and peat moss for co2?
                   DATE - 03:04:47 12/07/99
                   FROM - rx

                   Has any one tried generating co2 using limestone and peat moss? If so, how did you set it up? How did it work- etc.

                   TOPIC - revegging
                   DATE - 17:20:54 12/06/99
                   FROM - sb

                   My $.02 is that revegging is of limited usefulness.Most strains that I have revegged take SOOOOOO long to turn
                   around and put on sufficent growth for round number two that I only resort to revegging when I NEED TO.(ie: didn't keep
                   a clone or lost a backup etc.)
                   3 weeks to turn around and another 2-3 weeks vegging, major pruning and a rootbound plant that needs to be
                   transplanted or be shown special attention seem to be the rule rather than the exception.This is my experience.
                   One more thing...round number two has always been a smaller yield as well


                   TOPIC - Re-use or Re-veg ? Either?
                   DATE - 07:28:27 12/06/99
                   FROM - C.G.

                   Its been said that the Super Soil mix is capable of supporting more than one grow. Is there any reason why a carefully
                   harvested plant of medium size can't be re-vegged at least once? Is it a viable option for a SOG, or for plants in
                   containers smaller than 5 gal.?

                   What special tricks, if any, are helpful in making the change back to veg. growth, and how long a veg. period before the
                   resumption of 12/12?

                   Would it work best with "leafy" strains rather than those with extremely high calex to leaf ratios, or with SCROG style
                   grows? It would seem that the more leaf available to absorb energy, the quicker the plant can bounce back, and the
                   larger the root system, the quicker the plant can pump out a new set of buds.

                   If re-vegging can shave a week or more off the down time between harvests, why not do it?

                   Just curious.

                   TOPIC - lothat check you hotmail
                   DATE - 21:50:59 12/05/99
                   FROM - jay


                   TOPIC - cuttings
                   DATE - 19:59:39 12/05/99
                   FROM - cowboy

                   Well,i know for a fact that cuttings in oasis cubes in a baggie and a few extra paper towels for the resovoir do fine in
                   the mail in a box.Figures there would be a catch,oh well.Thanks anyway.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 18:42:01 12/05/99
                   FROM - Lothar

                   First off don't get me wrong GF and X are totally just for the asking.....I would hand it off to anyone for sure only catch
                   is its just that I would hand it off to you... I just don't wanna deal with mailing its not seeds their clones, rooted in oasis
                   3 or 4 inches high ... if you know someone around my parts or close Ill hook them up for you and they can figure how
                   to send them off...
                   Oh ya one more thing need a feww weeks to prepare them

                   I know what you mean about it wanting to flower all the Time , I keep the moms under 24 hrs light and that kindove
                   stops her from going over, occasionally she does start (makes fast rooting clones then) and after a week or so falls
                   back out of it again.
                   I know only one other person to grow her large (about 5 ft) he has good results he said that she grows in bursts, he
                   said she likes to be the winner in the room LOVES the light but didn't much like the Idea of being shaded or in
                   compitition but yet anouther but he does grow it in hydro as well (organic teas and good ole fashioned chemicals)
                   Steve olso said he grew it large and said that it liked it ???The most constent way Ive seen is in 3 gallon pots grown up
                   to 2 feet or so then flipped
                   Oh yes Vic ya A chem hydro system is way better than organic soil bye far , and thats not Chemicals you taste thats
                   the flavour of the New Mellenium- Yummy General Hydroponics :)

                   OOPS gotta go cut short new plants yes Vic

                   TOPIC - :)
                   DATE - 13:30:44 12/05/99
                   FROM - Moonshine

                   Well,if those beans are being thrown about then you can count me in ;)

                   Also...can anybody straighten out the Sag blueberry thing...Some say it's the same Dj Short version of old and some
                   say it's been crossed with Bubbleberry....i have 1 thick chunky girl and 1 that seems to be sick all the time...both
                   started to stink about 2 weeks into veg too...anyways any help is much appreciated :)

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 09:08:13 12/05/99
                   FROM - Ahhhsome

                   AHH Well I just got back from Jamaica two weeks ago.
                   Quite Exciting I must say lots of Ganja mostly seven foot sativas.
                   I would say the best part about the entire trip was the price of the herb $75 US for a Quater Pound Mostly of lower
                   Quality sorry to say. Lothar while your given out free sample of your GF wanna send some of that to our friends in the
                   islands there in great need of some good herb down there. I brought down some Hawaiian Indica with me for my cousin
                   he was most thankful. Going back in Jan to visit my cousin plot he has 3 arces outside Port antonio.E-mail with details

                   P.s. Can anyone point me in the directions of a good indica
                   suited well to the tropics. Thanks

                   TOPIC - GF
                   DATE - 08:14:12 12/05/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   Hey Lothar, I have a complaint about my GF, she's a real bitch in the veg room. I have a hell of a time keeping her mind
                   on vegging, she just has her heart set on flowering. And trying to veg her in anything other than a 2 gal container is a
                   waste of time, she just slows right down after 14" and lets all the other blow right on by, so no GF bushes for me,
                   hehe. I've been thinking that maybe she is better suited to hydro, for veg at least, what's your take on this? I think it's
                   the limited root space in the flower pots that triggers her flowering responce? Otherwise, I may have done something
                   wrong and f-cked up this little gem.

                   Her heavy preflowering also messes up her performance in the flower room, her stems seemed weakened by the
                   growth pattern . Nowhere as nice as what I saw coming from you and Jay ;) Oh yeah, that's another thing, In the couple
                   years I had her, she never gave me the kinda nugs you burned (hehe) so I was saying "what-the-f-ck!" why is his
                   chemical hydro better than my organic soil? haha. But recently, I finally saw her do her magic in a flower room with
                   double the light intensity. Ahhh the memories she brought back. Buddy, I've never seen anyone grow that GF as nicely
                   as you do (even if it has that chem taste) you are Da Man there, haha.

                   Oh yeah, like I said before, I gotta a couple new treasure than may be more up your alley than what I shared in the
                   past, shorter flowering times and such ;)

                   Oh yeah, you ever run into my buddy Squatch? Figured you two would have something in common. He just finished a
                   busy session for a childrens series on family network.

                   TOPIC - grapefruit and brand x
                   DATE - 07:37:34 12/05/99
                   FROM - cowboy

                   Lothar,dude,are you serious about sharing GF and brand x.Im not sure how to go about asking ,but i guess ill just
                   come out and ask,HOW can i get ahold of some of these genetics.if i ned to beg im begging,im even on my
                   knee's,lol.You can let me know here if you are seious or not.i sure hope you are serious.safe email is above.
                   Im waiting anxiously to find out if your just tesing or not.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 03:12:11 12/05/99
                   FROM - Lothar

                   Trading is a good Idea, I have a production bud you may like, big buds, great count and it aint crap
                   Where have I been well You know I don't like swearing but Ive been at work...If you remember what I do then you know
                   what a good year its been

                   I got my GF about 3 years ago now so Its not the one with the defects, the only drawback that Ive found with my gf is a
                   little after the 2nd week of flower it likes to grow a plenty in a week it shoots up 10 - 14 inches then slows to a normal
                   rate, but pretty freaken scary when it takes off.I wouldn't call it a draw back I just have little head room in my room so
                   tweeking the rite height to flower it took a bit.
                   As for improvements in the GF....hmm mabey less streatching but thats a minor point the buds are big dank and stinky
                   a good count per plant.... the smoke is uniquely flavoured sweet pungent aeromatic (a double bagger)The high is for the
                   experienced smoker...when you puff it it doesn't have the indication of the high you get bye the taste...ask Vic about
                   that one he he...lets say it catches you off guard

                   Just a little side note for the past 2 1/2 years I was looking for a better weed to grow tried over 100 kinds, mabey its not
                   fair to say bye just growing 1 or 2 plants of each but I havent found a better plant than my GF. My search has slowed
                   down (still keeping my eyes open)Getting some "Real MaCoy" soon be trying that one.

                   A note to all My Gf and Brand X are open to anyone who wants it the more thats out there the better I say... A few
                   restrictions on breeding (gentlemans agreement of coarse).

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 21:07:31 12/04/99
                   FROM - jay

                   hey gang hows everyone doing..?

                   Lothar where ya been man..?might be time to hook up and do a little trading huh...?got some sweet treats you might
                   like to try out...drop me a line.

                   TOPIC - Avid
                   DATE - 17:08:26 12/04/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   Hi, I've been having an email exchange with a concerned citizen who seems to know something about avid, here's a
                   repost of that email exchange so far.

                   From: "Concerned Citizen"
                   Subject: Re: AVID
                   Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 16:10:08 PST
                   To: bcga@MauiMail.com

                   >Hey, thanks for the concern, sorry for not responding
                   >sooner. I followed that link you gave me, thanks for the
                   >thought. However, I had already cut and paste it's contents
                   >to my webpage previously.
                   > >
                   > > Avid is not systemic, and is not readily absorbed by
                   > > plants, from soil....
                   >I guess I must be a little rusty on the terminology. I too
                   >am under the belief that avid won't work if applied to the
                   >soil. However, I'm under the impression that it is absorbed
                   >by the above ground plant tissues and remains effective in
                   >the plant tissues killing mites for 6-8 weeks. Is systemic
                   >the wrong word for this? If so, what would be a better term
                   >to use? I was going to suggest residual, but my
                   >understanding is that only those insects consuming the plant
                   >are affected. Those that only crawl on the plant are safe so
                   >long as they don't munch. Therefore, only the chimical
                   >absorbed into the plant tissue remains active for very long.

                   I am not under the impression that avid is absorbed into the plant tissues
                   at all. I have done some tests on plants treated with avid, and have not
                   found that mites are killed even 3 days later, but can spread, and infest
                   plants 3 days later, in some cases.(Heavy light, good mite breeding
                   conditions like heat etc.) I think the 6-8 week thing is just a factor of
                   the life-cycle of the two-spotted mite, which can take weeks to get a firm
                   'hold' on a garden, after initial infestation. Avid seems to be a good way
                   for people that cannot control mites after infestation to get a good head
                   start on a crop, especially if the crop is only around for 8-10 weeks, after
                   the mites are killed. I have most definitally seen crops 5-6 weeks after
                   application that were seriously mited out. It seems unlikely that a plant
                   that was dipped with only 4-6 leaves or so sould possibly contain any
                   measurable amount of abamectins when it is 2-3 feet tall with over 1000
                   times the mass of the original plant, given the fast half-life of the
                   product. Don't know, but I do have some info coming from Merck.

                   They were granted crop protection coverage in 1994 for some things...

                   Crop Protection

                   Worldwide sales of abamectin-based products to protect various fruit,
                   vegetable and ornamental crops from damage by mite and insect pests continue
                   to grow. In the United States, full registration was granted for
                   strawberries, tomatoes and lettuce. Claims for citrus were expanded to

                   The avermectins, which have been refined by Merck, which are the group which
                   avid comes from, are used to treat many things, and are anti-parasitic, and
                   pesticidal, and even used on HUMANS!, (I think there are 8 avermectins)
                   Here is another excerpt from Merck's site.

                   Few examples better illustrate our approach to research and development than
                   the process that began with a soil culture
                   provided by the Kitasato Institute in Japan.

                   From that single sample - and the combined efforts of hundreds of
                   Merck scientists - flowed what one Merck researcher
                   called an "incredible discovery - a microorganism that produced a
                   fabulous family of substances with unprecedented potency
                   and activity against both internal and external parasites of
                   animals, as well as pests that destroy crops."

                   Analysis of the culture found eight distinct, but chemically
                   related, active compounds that Merck chemists dubbed the

                   One pair of these avermectins, which was chemically modified,
                   demonstrated extraordinary activity against a broad spectrum
                   of animal parasites. Named dihydroavermectin B, it has emerged as
                   a true breakthrough in animal health - with
                   formulations available today for use in cattle, sheep, horses,
                   swine, and dogs.

                   Perhaps the most satisfying use for dihydroavermectin B, however,
                   has been in human health, where it is used to prevent
                   onchocerciasis, or river blindness - a leading cause of blindness
                   in developing Third World countries.

                   Untreated, it can cause permanent eye damage, even blindness.
                   However, a single dose of dihydroavermectin B every 12
                   months is sufficient to block development of the parasite to the
                   mature form, which releases the disease-causing microfilariae.

                   My last reply

                   This is getting interesting, thanks for the info at the
                   bottom ;) My experience has been very different than yours.
                   When I first started using Avid, I was gardening perpetual
                   harvest style, where I would harvest a portion of the garden
                   every 2 weeks. And I was loosing the mite war. I sprayed my
                   veg room and all plants newly being placed into the flower
                   room. But I didn't spray any plants already in the flower
                   room out of health concerns for the consumers. The untreated
                   crop was growing right next to the treated crop, but the
                   treated crop remained mite free for about 6 weeks before
                   mites started migrating. The second application completely
                   erradicated the mite population in the veg room, but it took
                   about 3-4 months before I was able to completely clean them
                   out of the flower room, since I wouldn't spray a flowering
                   plant. Everytime I introduced new plants to the flowering
                   room, I would spray them.

                   However, one important note is that I have no certainty that
                   what I was using was in fact Avid. I purchased it black
                   market and it came in a small unmarked bottle. So maybe it
                   is something else and all us in this industry are just being
                   misinformed that it is indeed Avid. Who knows, I should see
                   if I can get my hands on some legit avid and compare ;)

                   Oh hey, in your references of crop plants, have you seen any
                   mention of the tobacco industry? I figure they would have
                   the real info that would be most relevent to our needs,

                   Anyway, thanks again, Vic

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 09:11:41 12/04/99
                   FROM - KQ

                   Howdy Lothar,
                   Say, your GF isn't the one with the supposed faults is it? Can you name any drawbacks that you've seen with your GF
                   or any improvements you'd like to see in it??

                   TOPIC - 10k piss test
                   DATE - 20:04:55 12/03/99
                   FROM - Strider

                   powdered urine.. 1-800-333-2152 or www.nodrugwar.com it works and will pass a GCMS test.

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 12:37:29 12/03/99
                   FROM - Lothar

                   Curious George
                   Roots dangle straight out of the bottom of the pot (not comeing out of the sides added bonus so as not to damage
                   roots when placeing them on the flower table)Table is gavety fed to res approx 6 in. fom bottom of mesh to table.
                   The Mesh 1s about 1/2 hole so the roots don't "grab it" extraction is easy and no damage to roots.

                   Q: So, after 2 or 3 weeks in the blaster before being transplanted, how long do they take to finish in the flower room ?
                   A: My strains are approx 7 weeks it does nothing to the length of FLOWER time
                   Q: and how does the Total time to finish, and the yield compare with your previous results with the same strains?
                   A: Total time has increased and decreased you may say- Before I would Veg them in the flower room for 5-9 days
                   before turning to flower-NOW I veg them 2-3 weeks out of the flower room and then place them in the flower room. So in
                   essence I have a 7 week turn over instead of an eight week turn over.And they get more Veg time.

                   Vic and All
                   Sweetooth is a sweet pink grapefruit X
                   Grapefruit was crossed with ?? to make Sweet Pink Grapefruit
                   A grapefruit is going around but it has some genetic faults I forget what he said was wrong with it

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 11:44:13 12/03/99
                   FROM - Da Man

                   Just to make your life easier, here is the conclusion you will reach:

                   If you are concerned you might test positive after considering your situation, drink 6-8 glasses of water 2 hours before
                   the test. The night before, take some creatine supplement to cover your dilution. Four hours before the test, take a
                   b-complex vitamin to add yellow color to cover the dilution. And, lastly, take 4 aspirin 2 hours before the test, it will
                   cause a false negative on the EMIT.

                   You may confirm this with the FAQ. Hope you get an EMIT, you probably will.

                   Do not give them the first urination of the morning. If you can, stream a bit in the toilet and give them the midstream of
                   your wee pee.

                   You can learn more from the FAQ, also about Klear and Urinaid. Only prob with those is, some labs test for additives.

                   You are a naughty boy, you felon. :)

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 11:26:54 12/03/99
                   FROM - Da Man

                   Damn 10k, I did not know you knew about this place.

                   Go here, and study:


                   TOPIC - drug tests
                   DATE - 07:09:35 12/03/99
                   FROM - cowboy

                   10kDUDE,YOU ALREADY WENT A WEEK,YOU HAVE 30 MORE DAYS?dont take any illegal drugs,no toking no
                   nothing and you will clear out for the piss test dude.It is said thc leaves the system in 38 days.im a very chronic
                   smoker and i passed the test were im now working i stopped for about 6 weeks wich was overkill.also i have a step
                   daughter who was toking it up all weekend and then dropping clean UAs for the probation office on monday by taking
                   lots of niacin and soaking in a hot bath.also on occasion she used a product called the stuff a bottle of liquid you
                   consume.In my opinion she wasnt to smart to keep partying while on probation. a year or two without partying is much
                   easier than any time with no freedom dude.Hope you get by it dude.

                   TOPIC - Drug testing... What can I do?
                   DATE - 22:24:07 12/02/99
                   FROM - 10k

                   I have to take a drug test in less then thirty days...what to do?
                   Haven't smoked in a week, haven't snorted any ritalin lately either but...Help!

                   Should I try to clear out my system somehow?

                   Or does anyone know of substances which would cause false positives, which may be listed on a questionare to be
                   answered before the test, which I could comsume to throw off the test.
                   Are there any drugs I could get a "candy man" doctor to prescribe which would screw up the test as for the thc in my
                   I just don't know what to F'k to do.
                   I'm not even sure what kind of drug test they will make me take?
                   I think it will be a piss test but, I'm not sure?
                   Its a condition of court imposed probation, I have to pay these motherf'ers a fee to administer my probation and I must
                   take a drug test. (which I also have to pay for)
                   What are my rights?
                   Can I refuse? I doubt it or the probation officer will violate me, or do I have a right to refuse this test.
                   (say if they want blood or hair)?

                   Anyy doctors or lawyers out there?

                   Thanks, 10k

                   TOPIC -
                   DATE - 19:51:49 12/02/99
                   FROM - Vic High

                   gfruit - I think your best place to start your search is with some of Breeder Steve's grapefruit backcross, Sweet Tooth.
                   Sweet tooth is somewhat inconsistent in the flower room, but you will get many fine buds to choose from. Then make
                   an F2 cross of the sweet tooths most like grapefruit. Sifting throught the F2s should yield you a good duplicate of
                   grapefruit. Another alternative is that Marc Emery has a grapefruit duplicate called Mikado that is made by Federation

                   dirt farmer, thanks for the recipe

                   Green Machine - thanks for the suprise feedback, I appreciate it, wish more came in. I guess some were dogs and
                   growers wanted to spare my feelings. If that was the case guys, don't worry about it, send them in!! LOL. There is a
                   good chance the SR was a romberry F2, they have a good chance of doubling up on romulan's stink gene.

                   Lothar, your alive? WOW!! email is above if your interested, got some new clones that may tickle your fancy. May
                   challange your X anyway, hehe. Hey, thanks for the grow setup info, that sounds like a good one, but what does this
                   dirt boy know about hydro, hehe. Hey, has that buddy of yours gotten you to put some fish in your res? ;)

                   Marilyn Kuss - damn are schools getting more and more liberal, it just touches my heart. Sure, will be happy to help,
                   got a few stress relieving brownie recipes you may be interested in, and from what I saw at the last Olympics, they
                   should assist the snowboarders in your class ;)

                   well, that is as far back as I got, see ya

                   TOPIC - Romeberry results
                   DATE - 15:58:57 12/02/99
                   FROM - dirt farmer

                   thought i would drop in and thank BCGA for producing this fine seed. if you check out canabis.com biniers from dirt
                   farmer you can see the plants(#3485 11/30/99)I will let you know what the yields are later.

                   I grow 100% organic and would like to throw my mix into the soil mix page
                   40 lbs(app. 6 gal) top soil from store
                   2 gal. peat moss
                   2 gal. an organic peat moss(more earthy)
                   1 gal greensand
                   2 gal perlite
                   1 gal vermiculite
                   1-2cups each of blood meal and bone meal
                   2-3 cups fresh woodash from fireplace
                   sprinkle of lime
                   i will break this down into a ratio later or someone else can. it can be alot of thinking. a ratio is the best way to let
                   someone know a good mix because they then can tailor it to the amount they need to make

                   TOPIC - Romberry Surprise Results
                   DATE - 08:50:42 12/02/99
                   FROM - Green Machine

                   Hey Vic,

                   Just wanted to check in and let you know how the romberry surprises turned out. I ended up with two distinct varieties.
                   One was fruity and one was more hashy/fruity/skunky.

                   You told me that one was probably chemo x romberry since it was so bushy. She was very fruity during flowering, and i
                   would say could be considered a low odor variety, since the smell was nothing like pot. This one ended up being so
                   fruity that it tickled your gums when you smoked it. The buds ended up being a light bluish gray color, with dense
                   trichomes all over the calyxes and bud leaves, very sparkly bud. Once you put some dry buds in a bag, watch out, you
                   can smell the stuff in your pocket. This was a potent plant. I cannot give yield numbers because I had a root rot
                   problem which lowered the overall yield substantially. This one did yield about 1/2 of the other variety. Most who tried it
                   agreed that it was excellent tasting bud. I only dried it for 5 days and it was ready to go.

                   The other variety had a mocha-like smell during flowering, but you could only smell it close up. It also could be
                   considered a low/no odor variety. This one took a few more days to finish (53). During drying the smell changed almost
                   daily. Final smell was more hashy than fruity, but more fruity than skunky, but all smells were there. This one took
                   alittle longer to dry, about 8 days. The color of the bud was beatiful. It was light (almost neon) green with orange hairs
                   and purple hues on the under sides of the leaves. It was the most colorful bud i've ever seen. Most people's reactions
                   were that it was the best looking bud they've ever seen, and it tasted like great hash when smoked. It definitely had a
                   more fruity flavor than any hash ive smoked. This also provided a great stone that you could feel in your shins. The
                   stink of this bud in a bag is definitely obnoxious...which amazed me since it didn't smell much during flowering or
                   drying. It only smells when its disturbed. I call this bud "SR bud" because I dont know who the father is and its
                   definitely a "Security Risk" to carry this stuff around with you! Do you have any idea what strain might be the father?
                   From descriptions you gave on the net, i'd say the father is definitely NOT durban poision or peruvian sativa, maybe its
                   a romberry x romberry or romberry x sweet tooth? I'd appreciate your opinion.

                   I have the next batch going under a perpetual scrog set up...i'll be back in 6 weeks with a better report on the yields of
                   these two varietys from your Romberry Surprise.

                   I would definitely say that these genetics are amazing. Considering I got GREAT tasting bud from plants that all had a
                   root rot problem for most of the flowering period. I also have learned that they both HATE water and fertilizer. I have two
                   plants per 3 gal container in a scrog grow, and they only want me to give them 1 cup of water w/ half strength dynagro
                   3-12-6 per container per WEEK! They are growing like wildfire with this regimen. Have you ever heard such a thing?


                   TOPIC - mite erdication
                   DATE - 02:23:50 12/02/99
                   FROM - buddy

                   Cedar closet freshners keep my grow closet free of mites and other pests. I also keep a 6" fan blowing across the tops
                   of the plants at all times.

                   TOPIC - buddy's mite & pest control method
                   DATE - 02:03:19 12/02/99
                   FROM - buddy

                   My informant's grow closet is adjacent to a room with glass blocks in the south wall. This room is used to recescitate
                   common house plants. The natural light in this room is not sufficient to flower mj, but recently some flowering mj was
                   put there to "hold". Indians (Indica) developed mites but the sativa didnot - presumably infected by mites harbouring in
                   the common house plants. The mj plants were moved back to the grow closet in an infected condition but soon were
                   free of mites. Pest control in the grow closet is accomplished with cedar buds in a loose weave bag which are
                   purchased from a local vendor as closet freshners (Cedar closet freshner)A six inch fan blows across the tops of the
                   plants 24 hrs a day so that the leaves bob and sway. Whether its the fan or the cedar, it's hard to say, but my mites
                   are gonzo.

                   TOPIC - Check it out
                   DATE - 13:44:44 12/01/99
                   FROM - Barry

                   For goodies check it out!!!


                   TOPIC - grapefruit
                   DATE - 10:01:03 12/01/99
                   FROM - Gfruit

                   I just have to ask this and Im sure Ill get no answer .But never hurts to try..first off We are kind of upset that we found
                   that some one has already developed a grapefruit strain.because up until a few days ago when we found your site and
                   read that grapefruit was one of grower3's favorite strains..we WERE trying to developing grapefruit in fact we kind of
                   accidentaly stumbled on it from seeds that were accidentaly made by a hermie excaping our eyes the only prob is that
                   lost the records of what strain the hermie was and didnt think to make a mother cause we didnt know it was going to
                   turn so wonderfully grapefruit..(we expirement loosly alot-I know its our own stupid fault))all we know is its VERY
                   predominatly sativa with a moderate yield .and if this isnt the kicker it was polinated with another unknown Indica
                   hermie so we have these mystery grapefruit X ? seeds that we are making a mother with..we will of course post the
                   results now that we'v found you all.the point of all this is, Is there any way in hell that we can at least have a little tiny
                   weenie hint of what the recepie is. we are hooked on the g-fruite..and would love to stabilize t

                   TOPIC - nexus
                   DATE - 16:38:46 11/30/99
                   FROM - trelaway

                   not familiar with the stuff but I just smoked some bud neem was used on. The guy'd discontinued use ~ month b4
                   harvest. Smoked fine, we're all still alive. Weekly should be okay. A

                   Wow...just heard Seattle had been declared a state of emergency (or one of those 'cops clamping down' phrases)and a
                   curfew may be imposed. I think they've even loaded thier guns with rubber bullets. It's too bad that something useful,
                   like WTO bashing, just turns into a mob scene.

                   I have an anon email: trelaway@mailcity.com

1999 Archives

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